Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Statements by Ministers — 4 April 2000 (44th General Assembly, 2nd Session, Vol. XLIV No. 11)
2000-04-04
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
April 4, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 11
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to extend congratulations to the Southern Shore female hockey
team which this past weekend won the Provincial Female Hockey Championship. I
extend congratulations to their head coach, Loyola Driscoll, members of the
coaching and management team, Ken and Diane Williams and Jim Boland.
It was a very competitive affair, well organized, well run and the
championship game was a very competitive two to one game.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Today I rise to bring recognition and congratulations to Pouch Cove
Elementary on winning a national award. Pouch Cove Elementary recently won Mr.
Christie's Book Award, Read To Succeed Program.
One hundred and eight students took
part in this very worthwhile project.
Four thousand books were read in four weeks. Not only did these students have a
great learning experience, but they can say they were tops in the country. As a
Member of the House of Assembly I say congratulations on a job well done. I know
their parents and teachers are very proud of these students for their commitment
and hard work. These students have won $5,000 worth of books for their school
library, even more books for them to read.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.
MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is my pleasure to inform this hon. House that The Western Star ,
Western Newfoundland's only daily newspaper celebrates its 100 th
birthday today, April 4.
To mark this significant milestone in its history, the auditorium at Sir
Wilfred Grenfell College in Corner Brook was transformed into a time machine on
Saturday past where the general public was invited to walk through history
courtesy of some memorable pages from The Western Star .
The Western Star was founded on April 4, 1900 by the late Walter S.
Marche, a former editor of the now defunct Daily News here in St. John's.
Since that time The Western Star has come a long way. Today it has a
staff of sixty working at its headquarters in Corner Brook with reporters in
Deer Lake and Stephenville, along with Star correspondents throughout the
entire western region.
The Western Star was there to cover World War I and World War II. It was
there to cover the American presence in Stephenville. It was there to cover our
Province's Confederation with Canada. I am pleased to inform this hon. House
that The Western Star will continue to cover the events and occurrences
that are of significance to the people of Western Newfoundland for many years to
come.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
On Saturday past I had the opportunity to attend a banquet hosted by the
Labrador West Ptarmigan Shrine Club. In attendance, making it a first for
Labrador, was the highest ranking official of the Shriners in North America, the
Imperial Potentate, Illustrious Sir Ralph W. Semp and Lady Pat Semp. Also in
attendance were Potentate: Illustrious Sir Y. Sheridan Yetman and Lady Evelyn
Yetman, along with other Shrine officials.
The Imperial Potentate designated Labrador West as a place he wanted to visit
because even though their club is small, the Ptarmigan Club's contribution to
the Shriners is significant.
The Shrine organization is one of the greatest organizations in our society.
Their work with children is recognized worldwide. They have major hospitals in
Montreal, Philadelphia, Northern California and a burn treatment centre in
Boston. They have recently opened a new medical facility in Mexico.
Many children of our Province have benefited from the generosity and
expertise of the Shriners and their hospitals. They have saved our government
and governments throughout the country millions of dollars. The Shriners spend
$17 every second, well over $500 million a year, providing specialized medical
treatments and conducting -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. COLLINS: - conducting scientific research trying to find cures for
many of the dreadful diseases that affect children.
I ask this House to join me in paying tribute to Shriners everywhere and
acknowledge the wonderful work they do on behalf of sick children.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to offer congratulations to Liam
Kavanagh of Torbay who captured top honors at the Newfoundland and Labrador
1999-2000 Finals of the Great Canadian Geography Challenge, a national student
geography competition.
The event was held in my district on Saturday, April 1, at All Hallows
Elementary in North River, and was co-hosted by Labrador City Collegiate in
Labrador City. The second place winner was Anthony Martin from the Labrador
area.
Each winner receives an expense paid trip to Ottawa to compete in the
National Finals on May 20-22.
It is obvious these students have a keen understanding of the geographic
nature of their country and the Province as a whole. This was said by Mr. Peter
Laracy, principal and coordinator for the Provincial Challenge.
The Challenge began earlier this year with classroom competitions where
school winners earned the right to qualify for the provincial championship. The
finalists answer dozen of questions asked by quiz leader Denis Malloy of VOCM.
The Great Canadian Geography Challenge is designed to help foster an interest
in geography among -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. HEDDERSON: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. HEDDERSON: - among school-aged children and to do so in a fun and
interactive fashion.
The top two finalists will go forward in the Canadian team. The Canadian team
won a gold medal in 1997, a silver last year.
The Challenge is organized nationally by the Canadian Council for Geographic
Education with the help of hundreds of local teachers and volunteers. National
corporate sponsors include the Royal Canadian Geographical Society, Bell Canada,
Corel Corporation, Esso Kids Program, and Canadian Geographic.
I join with the House in offering congratulations to the organizers of this
fine competition.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, in provinces across Canada and in countries
around the world, April 2-8 is being proclaimed as the week to recognize the
importance of good records and information management in the workplace.
This is the sixth anniversary of this special week, which was initiated by
the Association of Records Managers and Administrators Inc. (ARMA), a
professional, not-for-profit organization for education in the field of records
and information management. ARMA has 145 chapters throughout Canada, the United
States, New Zealand, Japan, Jamaica and Singapore.
This week, our local
chapter of ARMA will be hosting a reception at the
Provincial Archives of Newfoundland and Labrador with guest speaker on ISO
Standards, Susanna Duke, and will feature this event in the Association's
quarterly newsletter. Our local
chapter will also be featured at a display by
the national ARMA committee in Ottawa during the week.
With the increased usage of the Internet, satellite and other technologies in
our knowledge-based society, the world is becoming more and more what McLuhan
called a "global village."
As a result, the demand for quick and easy access to information is critical
for decision-makers, particularly when businesses are competing on an
international scale.
Withe the inundation of information in our lives today, control is essential
in order to ensure that both records and information are managed properly.
Fortunately, the systems for managing and storing information are becoming
increasingly sophisticated in our Province, and around the world.
As you know, the responsibility for government records and information
management falls under the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
However, as the hon. members were informed last week by the Minister of
Industry, Trade and Technology, her department, too, has taken an initiative in
this area with Success~Works, Industry, Trade and Technology's online business
information system.
Our records and information professionals play an important role in the work
environment, and this week we have the opportunity to recognize their work, both
within the public service, and throughout other organizations throughout the
Province.
As we celebrate National Records and Information Management Week, I invite
hon. members to join with me in recognizing the value of this work, and the
importance of good records and information management in our Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.
I would like to thank the minister for sending me a copy of his statement.
We, too, on this side of the House, would like to join with all members of the
House in wishing this group every success.
As well, it is very worthy to note that information, in my opinion, is a
two-way street. This same minister who just read this statement I wrote on
January 21, 2000 seeking information on a project that his department was
responsible for.
On January 25, I received a reply saying that my questions had now been sent
to Justice. That has been in excess of two months, so I say to the minister, and
to the Minister of Justice: Where is the information that should come back the
other way? It is fine to have good record keeping, but at the end of the day,
when we ask for information, we should have the decency of having that
information provided to us.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, thank the minister for a copy of his very important statement and his
update on the latest geography of the "global village."
Management of records and information is very important in our modern
society, and nothing could be more important than preserving our archival
material of this Province, which the minister is also responsible for. I want to
congratulate this organization for their professional approach to this and to
say that we here, in this Province, have the highest standards of
professionalism in terms of our ability to manage records and look after this
information. We need the support of government to ensure that all of our
records, including our archival material, is properly stored and cared for. We
hope that the new facility that we are going to build in St. John's will add
considerably to our ability to do that.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.
MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to take this opportunity to inform the House of Assembly of the
significant contribution being made to the pulp and paper industry and the
economy of this Province by Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited.
Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, through its capital expenditure initiatives,
invests millions of dollars each year into its Corner Brook paper mill and its
woodlands operations throughout the Province. The company will be undertaking a
number of major capital investment projects once again in the year 2000. It is
expected that this investment will be in the vicinity of $28 million.
There will be a number of capital investment projects started this year and
also completion of other projects from the past year. This work includes
approximately $6.6 million of work on the Number 7 paper machine.
In addition, there will be several new projects in the year 2000 which
consists of paper machine upgrades, environmental improvements and woods road
construction.
It is also worth nothing that Corner Brook Pulp and Paper woodlands division,
along with other operating divisions, is currently in the process of
implementing an Environmental Management System in an effort to improve their
environmental performance. The woodlands division and the paper mill are
currently updating the system to conform to the ISO 14001 standard. ISO 14001 is
an international standard recognized around the world. This is a clear
illustration of Corner Brook Pulp and Paper's commitment to protecting the
environment.
Mr. Speaker, this effort to improve, expand and create new infrastructure
allows Corner Brook Pulp and Paper to continue to produce a high quality product
for its customers throughout the world. The capital investment made by Corner
Brook Pulp and Paper provides a significant economic boost to a number of
communities throughout the Province, particularly those in rural areas of the
Province whose viability is dependent on a healthy pulp and paper industry. The
paper mill in Corner Brook and the woodlands division have a payroll of $64.5
million and employs 1,350 people.
Mr. Speaker, this $28 million capital investment this year does not just
represent an investment into the economy. It demonstrates a commitment by Corner
Brook Pulp and Paper towards advancing the pulp and paper industry in this
Province. Government commends their continued efforts in this regard and looks
forward to working with the company into the future to support this Province's
forest industry.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to thank the Colonel for forwarding a copy of the Ministerial
Statement to me today.
Mr. Speaker, it is a good news story and I certainly welcome the good news in
the pulp and paper industry today, with the few bad years we had in the past. It
is good to see the pulp and paper industry turning around and the companies
being very viable and economical, but I also want to recognize the fact of the
technology. Last year we saw, through the problems at the strike in Corner
Brook, when the loggers were out on strike, the technology certainly hurt them.
I am calling on the government and the minister to look into some of the pension
issues that were discussed in that strike and the harvesters situation so that
these displaced loggers could have some compensation and some hope for the
future. It is important that these loggers - after working in the field for so
many years - be taken care of in their last few years in the industry. It is
important that we see more money put into silviculture because of the low supply
of wood and product in our Province that -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. HUNTER: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: By leave?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. HUNTER: Mr. Speaker, the silviculture program was increased this year
by $2 million but I believe that this is not enough money to take care of the
problems that we have today in this Province with the development of our low
wood supply. I would just encourage the minister and his department to enhance
the silviculture program, put more money into it, and help the displaced loggers
so that they can have a better chance at their retirement in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Corner Brook Pulp and Paper is an important employer in our Province and it
is great to see them reinvesting in their company. It is important today to keep
pace with technology, and the focus today is, more than ever, on quality not
quantity, as it used to be a few years ago. It is also good to see that they are
paying attention to things that will improve the environment, after the concerns
that have been expressed in the Corner Brook area throughout the past number of
years.
I reiterate, too, that it is important that when technology is brought into
the workplace it used to its proper advantage, but we cannot be ignoring the
rights of workers who have long given good service to the employer. They have to
be taken care of in a proper manner when technology displaces any of the workers
in the workplace.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Yesterday, I
asked a question about the transmission line, or the inter-connector infeed from
Lower Churchill to the Island portion of the Province. I asked the question on
the basis that this government and the Province had said that the entire
transmission line or inter-feed question is dependant - the entire Churchill
Falls or Lower Churchill Falls discussions - upon the infeed. The minister said
yesterday that wasn't the case and he would love to see where it was quoted
from, so I would like to quote it for him today. On June 11, 1998, the Province's
chief negotiator said, "...the arrangements that have been made...." -
which I said yesterday -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. E. BYRNE: No, I talked about the chief negotiator yesterday.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the hon. the Government House Leader, yesterday in
this House I talked about the chief negotiator and I am talking about it again
today.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) first question.
MR. E. BYRNE: It is right in Hansard if he cares to read it, Mr. Speaker.
If the Government House Leader would like to pick up yesterday's Hansard he
can read it for himself where it says chief negotiator.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. E. BYRNE: No, I did not.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: I will ask the minister this question - "... the
arrangements that have been made - the basis for negotiations that have been
achieved so far - certainly contemplate having to have that transmission
line."
So, the whole structure is really tied into that transmission line. I would
like to ask the minister today - now that he has the information - is the deal,
or potential deal, with Lower Churchill and Hydro Quebec dependent upon the
transmission line, yes or no?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the Provinces' position has been consistent
from the beginning. Let me refresh the hon. member's memory. The first
question he asked in Question Period yesterday, in one of his statements, was an
allegation that the Premier had said that, and my response to him was that the
Premier had never said it. When he got up again, he then said: Well, the chief
negotiator said it.
There are a lot of people who might have said things, but the issue is
whether or not the line can be justified, given its cost to be built to the
Province. What we have said is: It can't be done without the assistance of the
federal government unless you want to charge excessive utility rates to people
in the Province. We do not see an economic case for building it unless someone
can find in the vicinity of $1 billion or $2 billion to subsidize it. That has
been the position of the Province from the beginning, it is what we said at the
beginning, and it hasn't changed.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It was also said at that time, on behalf of the Province, that the federal
government - I can quote again for the minister if he would like me to - that
were working with the Province on a good faith basis; and that it was the
Province's intent, in due course, to convince the federal government of the
logic of the necessity of the line.
Is the Province still convinced today that the logic and necessity of that
line in terms of - you have already had a position stated by your chief
negotiator that the necessity and the logic behind the necessity for the line
was already in place. I guess, how much work has been done? How much advance
have you made in convincing the federal government of the logic for the
necessity of that inter-feed line?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, all of these things have been costed; Muskrat
Falls as a possibility at the beginning, the transmission line-
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wants to
ask another question I will accede my place to him.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am delighted to answer the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's question,
in particular if he is prepared to listen to it.
From the beginning we have said there are elements to the deal that would be
negotiated around. We never said that one thing or the other would happen. The
issue of the transmission line, from the beginning, has always been known not to
be economic without some massive infusion of capital. We cannot justify it. We
probably can't borrow the money to build that, and if the hon. member takes $2
billion, tries to sink the cost and charge for the operation, he will find that
the increase in utility rates on the Island would be so huge that you couldn't
justify it to the public or certainly to our rating agencies.
If the hon. member has someone who wants to build a $2 billion line to the
Island, if this development goes ahead, and is prepared to say they will do it
at current electricity rates and not increase costs, we would like to know who
it is.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, according to the chief negotiator it was the
Province who said it was logical. I will quote him again. It says, "...the
Premier will be able to exercise some moral suasion on his former colleagues and
he certainly has assisted us in making sure that they've listened to the case
that we've made." Also, "...in their own terms, and we think that
the logic of what we put forward will convince them." - the federal
government.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask the minister: What has changed? A
year-and-a-half ago the logic of what they were putting forward, certainly they
felt that would convince the federal government that an infeed was not only
possible, it was economical and viable. So what has changed since then and now,
Minister?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The hon. member persists in asking the same question in a different fashion.
At the end of the day the issue is: Can it be built to the Island without
increasing rates? The answer that we keep giving is, no. What we said from the
beginning is that we would like to see it built. It may be a logical extension
and make sense to displace the fuel generation at Holyrood. There are elements
to this that are logical, that makes sense, that we would like to see it happen,
but there is an obstacle and the obstacle is economic.
Now if the hon. member can tell me where the $2 billion comes from, and if he
is prepared to finance it at rates that will not increase what the people in the
Province now pay, we would be delighted to see it done.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
He has asked me. They were the ones who had all the answers a year-and-a-half
ago. This was the project that was going to proceed. The transmission line was
going to happen. Thousands of jobs forever and a day were going to benefit. Now
he has asked me where we would find the $2 billion.
Let me refer him to the Premier's own statements about $2 billion. In March
of 1998, the Premier said that under our arrangement with Quebec, Newfoundland
and Labrador is entitled to 100 per cent of greenhouse gas emission credits for
Gull Island and 50 per cent of the emission credits from Upper Churchill
diversion projects. Out intent is to use those credits to help finance the
transmission line to the Island portion of the Province.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that he is now on a supplementary. I ask him to get
to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask the minister this: Have you done an
assessment on the emission credits? What price tags are those? How will that
assist in financing arrangements? At least the Premier two years ago felt that
he had the answer to where some of the financing will come. Maybe the Minister
of Mines and Energy can take some time and update us today in terms of what his
arrangements with respect to the emission credits have been and what price tag
have they associated with that aspect of the transmission line?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The hon. member has put his finger on one of the issues and one of the
problems with financing the line. At the time we did say, and we do believe that
it has a value because of the Kyoto Accord which the federal government signed
in 1997, agreeing to reduce the amount of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada
down by 6 per cent below 1990 levels. There has been no federal program. There
has been no international agreement among nations as to exactly how they are
going to do it. Now they have made a lot of progress in Europe. They have
assigned these quotas among the different countries but we have not been able to
do it in Canada. He puts his finger on one of the issues that we and my
colleague, the Minister of the Environment, recently discussed with out
colleagues nationally. The big obstacle that we have in Canada is that no one,
internationally, no country has been able to put a value on how much per ton
will be given as a credit in order to enable trading to take place; because what
is envisaged is a system in North America, certainly in Canada, whereby one
industry, if they clean up their emissions, can sell those credits to another
and you have a general program for cleaning it up. Greenhouse gases are a huge
problem because of global warming. The electrical power industry will, over
time, benefit from these; but right now the problem is that there is no value
and there is no quantum to it.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We have gone from his asking a question of: Where are we going to get $2
billion? And when he is reminded he is saying he and the Minister of Environment
and Labour are working on trying to identify the value for emission credits so
they can finance it.
I would like to ask the minister this question. In March, 1998, the Premier,
in an address to the Province, said: I have asked the Prime Minister and the
both the technical and financial requirements of such a project. The Government
of Canada have agreed.
Last year I asked the former Minister of Mines and Energy - it was my
information that the federal government had said absolutely no to participating
in the financing of the inter-feed or the transmission line. Yesterday the
minister, you, said directly that assistance hasn't been forthcoming. Could
you update us, now that we are two years later and an update was supposed to be
provided in June, on what the status of the negotiations are with respect to the
financial and technical aspects that you and the federal government have agreed
to look at? Surely, you must have made some progress in the last two years.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and
Energy.
MR. DICKS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition asked two questions. One had to do
with the greenhouse gases and so on and the value of those credits. There has
been no value assigned to them, but I will make a deal with the Leader of the
Opposition. If he can find someone prepared to pay $2 billion for it, we will
build the line to the Island. So far, no one has been forthcoming and the
federal government -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. DICKS: Because they won't be valued probably in that -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. DICKS: Yes, frankly, I do not think that the greenhouse gas credits
will amount to $2 billion, but they will have a substantial value, which has not
yet been determined. It is very difficult to sell something when no one puts a
price on it.
The second part of his question had to do with where we are in our
negotiations with Ottawa on the financing of the line to the Island. The
difficulty one has is when you look at the cost of it there are cheaper
alternate forms of energy that could be produced on the Island, because the 800
megawatt line is to provide for future growth.
AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible).
MR. DICKS: Many. I will entertain a question on it.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: The Minister of Mines and Energy has said - and I will make
this very clear - that nobody has been forthcoming with the Province in terms of
assisting to build a transmission line. Is he saying that the federal government
has said no, that they will not participate financially or in any other way,
shape or form in making sure that that transmission line becomes a reality? Is
that what the minister is now saying?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to say that at this time. Let
me say that we continue to have a dialogue with the federal government as to
what if any participation they will have in financing the Lower Churchill
development. They have indicated reluctance to help build the $2 billion line
when they believe there is an alternative available, be it natural gas, wind
power or others, that would provide more economic power for the people of the
Province. That is the issue and that is where we are. By and large, I would have
to agree with their economics, but between the two of us, if they put a
reasonable amount of money on the table, we might justify it. That amount of
money is not there yet.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Final question. What other forms of power are the federal
government talking about that are renewable, that will go on forever and a day,
that will provide a continuous uninterrupted supply of power to businesses and
homes in this Province forever and a day? What other forms of power could the
federal government be talking about that would equal the power we could get from
the Lower Churchill?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition asked the wrong
question. Hydro power does have an advantage in that it does last -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. DICKS: The question he should be asking is whether or not the net
present value of the line to the Island could be outweighed by another
alternative. The truth is, to generate another 800 megawatts the net present
value of something else you could build instead of hydroelectric power - there
are a number of things that you could propose that would be much more
competitive than that, including natural gas, and changing some of the
facilities we now have on the Island as well.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice.
All Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, I think, were shocked to hear of the
latest tragedy that came to the fore in Sheshatshu during the past few days. The
Chief of the Sheshatshu Band Council last night on the public airways,
practically on bended knee, begged the Province to give the Band Council some
additional tools to help it fight the devastation that Aboriginal youth in
particular are facing in that community.
I want to ask the Minister of Justice: Has the minister given any
consideration to Chief Riche's request that laws and/or regulations be put in
place that would allow authorities to apprehend people for gas sniffing?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.
MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, we have not been directly contacted in my
department at this time by Chief Penashue, but we are aware of the situation and
the fact that he has made certain public comments. We do expect to hear from him
in the very near future. In fact, I have undertaken with my officials to make
sure that we do set up a dialogue. This is indeed a most tragic situation. There
are various methods in which to deal with it. Chief Penashue is referring to
possibly criminalizing the situation, and if that happens, of course, that would
require some federal cooperation, if it is a matter of criminalizing. We do also
have tools available as well when persons are harming themselves in the
Province, and we would certainly undertake to do whatever is possible or
necessary to assist that situation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Lewisporte.
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this is not a new problem, I say to the
minister. Isn't the minister prepared to take the lead here, to contact Chief
Riche and the Band Council and say: What is it we can do to help you attack this
particular problem that faces the community?
Let me ask the minister this while he is on his feet. Has the minister or his
officials determined whether or not, in fact, it is within the power of the
Province to be able to enact regulations and/or legislation to help the Chief in
the request that he made publicly yesterday?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.
MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, in regards to the first part of the question,
we do in fact intend to set up a dialogue with Chief Penashue to discuss this
situation. It is most tragic, most urgent and most necessary. We certainly do
intend to do that.
With regards to the second issue, as I indicated earlier, there are two
possible ways of doing this. It may be a matter of criminalization which, if it
is, pursuant to the code, we will obviously require some federal government
input, but there are obviously methods under provincial legislation, such as the
Child Welfare Act and so on, that we can also look at to implement provisions
which could be of assistance in those tragic situations.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions are for the Minister of Industry. Minister, government gave
Friede Goldman over $80 million in assets and over $70 million in assumed loans.
They guaranteed $2.5 million in operating capital and gave them EDGE status.
Government assumed all environmental costs. We don't even know what they are
yet, Minister. I ask: What did Newfoundland and Labrador receive in return for
this deal?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.
MS KELLY: I would say, Mr. Speaker, in answer to this question, that the
main thing that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of
Newfoundland and Labrador received was a facility that is operating, that right
now has 400 to 500 people employed in it as it works on the Sedco 714 rig. It is
a company that is open and viable, and that we continue to meet with and to make
sure it has a vibrant future as our offshore is developed.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: They certainly haven't guaranteed the employment that
was set out in the deal.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, according to the Auditor General's report,
government did not verify the employment numbers provided by Friede Goldman.
Government did not verify the capital improvements reported by Friede Goldman. I
would like to ask the minister why government passed over assets of over $150
million and didn't see fit to even audit the employment numbers or the capital
improvement figures reported by Friede Goldman.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.
MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
What the hon. member is saying is just not correct. While the first year the
company did not formally, in a letter, write the department with the numbers,
they did not do that because in a presentation to government all of these
figures were outlined. So while it is not there in a formal letter, it is there
in even better form, in a total presentation on all the numbers. If you remember
correctly, the numbers were way above the required employment hours in that
first year. In the second year, which is this year past, we have had all of the
appropriate documentation presented before any set deadlines.
As to capital improvements, government did verify all of this. The capital
improvements that the company was supposed to make have been made.
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's
South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The minister is calling the Auditor General a liar. Government did not verify
these numbers. It is written in the Auditor General's report.
Minister, government was supposed to have had guarantees on the return of the
assets in the event of certain occurrences at the Marystown Shipyard. I am
asking the minister: Why did government not place language in that agreement to
ensure the return of assets in the event government felt it was necessary?
Furthermore, what protection do the people of this Province have on those
assets?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.
MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very fair to say that when we were
doing this transaction it was a privatization transaction. We privatized the
facility, and we privatized the facility in such a way that it will become an
industry. We did not go about meeting with Friede Goldman looking for their
failure. We looked at this as a privatization that would be successful and we
continue to work with them to make sure that it is successful.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services and has to
do with the home care industry in this Province. Currently, workers in home care
receive very low pay, about half of that of those providing the same service in
institutional care. They receive few if any benefits, often working split shifts
in different homes in the same day. Does the minister regard the service
provided by home care workers as equally valuable, if not more valuable, than
that of institutional care, and will he commit his government to the development
of a home care program with decent wages and full benefits for those working in
it?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I appreciate a question about a very serious topic for all of us. The
government in this Province has been continuing to move into the area of home
care and home support with a bigger role and on a bigger basis year over year in
the last decade. Ten or eleven years ago the total program, the total funding
for home care and home support in this Province, would have been in the range of
about $3 million. In this fiscal year there will be a budget of $36 million or
$37 million and because of some needs driven assessments the actual funding and
spending will be in the range of $40 million.
So there have been some tremendous strides and improvements made over a
decade with this particular government and a Liberal administration overseeing
what has been occurring. It is interesting to note that at this point - because
this has never been a medically insured service under medicare in Canada, even
though most of the home care has some kind of medical connection - the
territories as partners in a national home care, home support program that we
have already indicated that, even though we do not know the details, we would
could continue to make some improvements, so that we could give a broader range
of coverage, care and support, and so that we could improve the actual working
conditions for those people who provide the home care and home support to the
people that need it in their homes.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The government, through the Minister of Finance, in the 1997 Budget talked
about the great value on services provided to seniors and persons with
disabilities and the critical role of home care workers, yet the home care
workers in this Province are still not covered by workers' compensation
benefits, and government has acted to marginalize the work of home care workers
by treating them primarily as under self-managed care.
Is the minister prepared, as part of the development of the national home
care program, to have national standards, to raise those standards to ensure
that the workers in this very vital industry have decent wages and have full
benefits of employment like those workers in institutional care do today?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I sense from a couple of the things that were mentioned in the hon. member's
question that he obviously supports the whole concept that in an individual's
private home there should be unionization even if there is only one provider of
support in the home.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. GRIMES: That is the answer to the question, Mr. Speaker. He is
talking about the fact that he is suggesting that we are trying to marginalize
workers and that we do not value the actual care, and that the government should
not leave the actual person who requires the care as the employer in this case.
He is really trying to be up as an negotiator like his friend for Labrador West
who knows nothing about it when it is convenient, now suggesting that on behalf
of his -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.
MR. GRIMES: - union comrades in Newfoundland and Labrador that all home
care and home support workers should be unionized, that only agencies should
provide the care, that there should be a unionized rate, and that it is
inappropriate for an individual to hire a person who will provide care that they
need and want.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, hopefully he will ask some more questions -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to take his seat.
MR. GRIMES: - so we can explore the issue even further.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are to the Minister of Health and Community Services. The
medication (inaudible), or Aricept, which is a trade name, was approved
two-and-a-half-years ago by Health Canada as safe and effective in offering the
first ever treatment for the devastating and fatal Alzheimer's disease. Now
this drug has been proven effective on patients in the mild to moderate range.
There are currently 1,500 patients in Newfoundland and Labrador in that range.
Clinical studies have shown that 80 per cent of these people with mild to
moderate Alzheimer's disease can either improve or keep from getting worse by
taking this particular drug. This could keep or delay patients from being
institutionalized and it could save millions of dollars to our health care
system.
I know the minister this year has indicated in the Budget that there is $4.4
million for new drug therapies approved, or increasing the amount under current
ones. The cost of this one would only be between $1 million or $2 million,
depending on how many are under private insurance and how many might be covered
by DV and other sources. I want to ask the minister: Will he consider adding
this particular drug that can be cost-effective to the provincial drug program?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been considering it for some time.
If the evidence is presented to government, and to me as the minister, as was
described by the Opposition health critic, then we would have added it to the
list already. The fact of the matter is that there is a committee here in this
Province and also in Atlantic Canada, in each of the four jurisdictions in
Atlantic Canada, that do a review of the clinical trials and the clinical tests
and they have reported to four health ministers in Atlantic Canada that there is
no conclusive clinical evidence-based proof today that Aricept is actually
effective.
Health Canada indicates that it is absolutely safe, there would be no adverse
or negative impacts, and they say it might be, in some circumstances, marginally
effective; but there are further clinical trials and tests being done, other
than those being done by the companies trying to sell the drugs, to determine
whether or not it should be added to the list in Newfoundland and Labrador and
we do this in partnership with the other provinces in Atlantic Canada.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The previous minister said the same for MS drugs and several months later it
was accepted because we are the last to come on stream; and with schizophrenia
and with other drugs it's the same thing. We are always last to accept the
clinical and research evidence.
Dr. Rockwood, Director of the Geriatric Medicine Research Unit at Dalhousie
Medical School, the leading people in the field, in the study of dementia, has
successfully treated patients with it . He stated that symptoms improved
noticeably, particularly in the ability to initiate tasks which have previously
been lost. The Director of Alzheimer's Disease Research at the McGill Centre
for studies in aging has indicated that we would decrease the number of persons
with Alzheimer's by half if we delay the onset, as this drug can do, by up to
five years.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Here in this Province, I want to mention that Doctor (inaudible) was here,
the Chief of Geriatric Psychiatry at McGill, down here in this Province, and
used it as standard therapy for Alzheimer's.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Has he read and followed these
people who are experts in the field, and the local expert in this Province, Dr.
Strong, and even Dr. Butler who has had extensive patients with this? They
support a twelve week trial or a trial basis for that drug. I ask the minister:
Will he do what they are doing in Ontario and Manitoba and approve a twelve week
prescription trial for this drug? If it works, use it, if not, don't use it
for these people.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Maybe I might add to the facts that were just presented. I just happened to
come from a meeting of Health Ministers in the country where this issue was one
of those that was discussed because the increasing cost of drugs and
pharmaceutical supplies is one of the real cost drivers of health care in the
country in any event. It is interesting that he mentioned Ontario and Manitoba,
because I happened to ask both those ministers if they had actually approved
Aricept on the basis of clinical evidence. Their answer was, no.
The answers given were these: they suggested that they would have been better
advised to wait for clinical evidence from those other than the company trying
to sell the drug, which is what we are waiting for; and that in Ontario they
said they did it because there was public pressure and they had the money, which
is not our case; and in Manitoba they did it because it was announced during an
election.
They admitted that in both cases neither of them did it on the basis of
evidence; and guess what? In one of those provinces they had just threw out a PC
government and replaced it with an NDP government in Manitoba. They are going to
try the great NDP solution across the country -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.
MR. GRIMES: - and in Ontario, where they happen to have lots of money,
the PC government admitted that they did it with no evidence outside of that
provided by the seller of the drug itself but did it because they happened to
have the money -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. GRIMES: - and could afford it, and did not have to take any more
public pressure; because they are Progressive Conservatives and they do not want
to take any more public pressure.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Order 1, Committee of Supply.
On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on
Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Committee of the Whole
CHAIR (Smith): The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I call the Estimates for Executive Council.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have a few questions regarding Executive Council and I wonder if the
previous Minister of Finance maybe can help with some of these questions, as the
Minister of Finance is unavailable, I am sure.
AN HON. MEMBER: The Treasury Board President is going to answer.
MR. T. OSBORNE: The Treasury Board President is going to answer. Well,
that is good.
Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Treasury Board President can give us a run down
of the numbers of employees at Governor House and what their various salaries
are?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
In response to the member opposite, I would like to tell you that the
salaries actually for Government House were less than anticipated last year. We
had a budget forecast of $402,400 and in actual fact there were $370,000 spent
in salaries. Out of that $370,000 there were twelve permanent positions,
temporary assistance and a little overtime.
Of course, we all know here the important role and function of Government
House. Although, it is largely ceremonial, we want to look at Government House
as one of the wonderful traditions of this Province and our close association to
the British Empire.
I will have to say to you that Government House performs various functions
throughout the year. If we were to close it, we would have to provide allowances
for the Lieutenant-Governor to perform his duty at other venues and we would
still have the building to maintain, as I said last year. It is a wonderful
building. The tradition that we have with being the oldest British Crown Colony,
a wonderful part of our history in the Cabot year 1997, we had such wonderful
ceremonies here. We are quite unique here in this Province in having that part
of history, and to do less than not maintain Government House, I think, would be
a poor move on our part.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank the President of Treasury Board. I wonder if the President of
Treasury Board can give us an outline or a list of the twelve positions that are
there and basically, I guess, a brief
summary of their duties and the salaries
for each of those twelve positions?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I indicated previously to the Member for St. John's South, there are
approximately twelve employees. Out of that grouping we have: a private
secretary to the Lieutenant-Governor, a secretary to the Lieutenant-Governor,
residence manager, a gardener, secretary to assistant deputy minister, a chef
for Government House -
AN HON. MEMBER: And a gardener, too.
MS THISTLE: A gardener, too, and a chauffeur, and a domestic worker.
All of those positions total twelve. Throughout the year, the salary total
came to $374, 800, a drop of the forecasted $402,000 previously.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr .Chairman.
There is a considerable increase in the budgeted amount for this year over
the revised amount for last year. I would like to ask the President of Treasury
Board what that anticipated expenditure or the increase in expenditure is for.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: With regard to the salaries being lower than forecasted, the
reason for that was because there was a vacant chauffeur position during the
fiscal year; however, the chauffeur services were provided by the Canadian Core
of Commissioners. That is the reason for the drop.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman..
I wonder if the President of Treasury Board could give us an idea of the cost
of repairs and upgrading that has been done at Government House over the past
year?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: The repairs would come under Purchased Services, 06., and
also Supplies, 04.
Purchased Services, of course, are usually photocopy charges, matting and
framing of certificates, pictures and portraits, refurbishing period furniture,
restoration of art work, cleaning of draperies and so on, the regular
maintenance that would take place in a facility such as Government House.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I wonder if the President of Treasury Board could tell us what repairs have
been undertaken at Government House over the past year.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would have to tell you at this point, I would not have a detailed listing
of the actual repairs that took place on a day-to-day basis; however, if you are
interested in obtaining that information, I will be only too pleased to provide
you with that in the coming days.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you again, to the President
of Treasury Board.
That would be most useful information, I say to the President of Treasury
Board. We would certainly appreciate a copy of the ongoing repairs over the
previous year that have taken place at Government House.
I ask the minister, or President of Treasury Board, under Property and
Furnishings, there was a sum of $5,000 spent. I wonder is she can elaborate for
us on what furnishings have been replaced, or if there have been repairs to
furnishings and so on at Government House, if she could give us an idea of what
new furnishings have been purchased at Government House over the previous year.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
For the interest of this House and the Member for St. John's South, the
increase of $1,500 over the forecasted expenditure of $3,500 included the
purchase of office furnishing and, of course, household appliances and gardening
equipment. Fifteen hundred dollars is not much in the way of new money when you
look at the expenses of running a facility such as Government House, and even
our own households, when you look at an increase of $1,500 over the previous
year in replacement of furniture and equipment.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: I wonder if you could tell us what furnishings have been
purchased at Government House over the previous year. Furthermore, the
furnishings that have been replaced, what has been done with those? Where did
they finally end up? As opposed to just in government inventory, where exactly
did those furnishings end up, I ask the President of Treasury Board?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, the Member for St. John's South is asking for
a detailed list of an extra $1,500 spent at the Lieutenant-Governor's
residence.
MR. T. OSBORNE: The total $5,000.
MS THISTLE: Well, actually, there is an increase of $1,500.
MR. T. OSBORNE: To a total of $5,000.
MS THISTLE: The normal forecast for replacement of furniture and
equipment, the normal wear and tear, is forecasted to be about $3,500 per year.
Last year, $5,000 was spent. What you actually asking at this moment is a
detailed listing of what was actually repaired or replaced during the past
fiscal year. Is that correct?
I would think what you might do, probably at the end of this exercise, if you
would write me a letter with all your requests in detail, I would only be too
glad to respond to them.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: On a point of order, if the hon. gentleman would submit that
list of questions that he has there in such minuet detail, I'm sure we could
even undertake to even tell him what kind - he is laughing over there. Make no
wonder he is laughing. We could even undertake to tell him what kind of soap is
used there, the color of the dish clothes. I understand that some of the cups
cracked last year in Government House, too.
CHAIR: There is no point of order.
The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: The reason I was laughing was because he wanted us to
send over -
MR. TULK: (Inaudible) you were laughing (inaudible).
MR. T. OSBORNE: The reason I was laughing, I say to the Government House
Leader, was that you wanted it in writing. I could envision it going off to the
Minister of Justice for his approval -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: - and the Minister of Justice would determine whether or
not we could find out what happen to the furnishings that had been replaced at
Government House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. T. OSBORNE: I wonder if the President of Treasury Board could tell us
what happens to the furnishings that are replaced at Government House. Once they
leave Government House, where do they go? I am sure there are some pretty nice
furnishings there. There is absolutely no doubt about it, it would certainly be
a shame for them to be just put in storage somewhere.
CHAIR: Order, please!
The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, all of us have visited Government House and I
think you will agree that there is a great deal of period furniture at
Government House. Many people throughout our Province have had an opportunity to
visit Government House and admire part of our history, and our history is
contained in Government House.
I am certain that every piece of furniture that is within use is kept at
Government House for further viewing by the citizens of our Province.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Chairman, I know it sounds trivial to the President
of Treasury Board, but I am sure that, over the course of the past several
decades, some furniture have left the premises of Government House and I am
curious as to where that would go.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please!
MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
I wonder how many (inaudible).
CHAIR: Order, please! Order, please!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
CHAIR: Order, please!
The Chair has not recognized -
MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: I wonder if the hon. gentleman could make known which year?
What pattern he thinks was there? Would he like to know what pattern is there,
what color? I have to say to the hon. gentleman that this is reaching the stage
of being ludicrous.
CHAIR: Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MR. TULK: You don't have to answer (inaudible) questions.
MS THISTLE: I realize that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The questions that the hon. Member for St. John's South is asking are
interesting ones, and entertaining. However, if you would like to have a re-cap
of the furniture at specific times and dates I would appreciate if you would put
that in writing and address those details directly to me. In due course you will
get a reply.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.
I will move on, I say to the President of Treasury Board, but as well as
moving on to another topic I ask: What would the policy be on furniture removed
from Government House? What is government's policy on if something were
removed from Government House to be replaced? I just find it fascinating that we
can't get an answer. I would like to know what would the policy be, and where
would that furniture end up?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Most of us, as I said before, have had the opportunity to visit Government
House and I can tell you that most of the pieces of furniture there are antique,
they are period pieces. I am quite certain, and I can speak with confidence,
that every effort is made to restore and retain because that is a very valuable
part of our history, and that is all the more reason why we would want to keep
it in the condition that it was originally.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: I can see the President of Treasury Board is either
afraid to answer the question or doesn't know the answer. Government's
policy on what is not restored, what is deemed no longer fit for Government
House, what is to be removed from the premises of Government House, has to go
somewhere. Unless the minister has it in her office and doesn't want to tell
us, tell us the policy.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: You might find this entertaining, Mr. Chairman, and members
of the House, when I assumed the office of the President of Treasury Board -
MR. TULK: You got Frank Moores' furniture, didn't you?
MS THISTLE: Yes, in fact, I was the one that lucky enough to receive the
office furnishings of former Premier Frank Moores.
MR. TULK: Aren't you lucky? The red chesterfield.
MS THISTLE: The red chesterfield. So you can understand that we have been
a very frugal government. I would say every effort is made by Government House
to maintain, restore and keep the furniture that was originally in Government
House.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: I am going to have to move on because I can tell she is
afraid to answer the question. However, when the former premier, Frank Moores,
returns to St. John's in the coming months I am going to tell him personally,
because he would be most interested to hear, that the hon. President of Treasury
Board is sitting on his chair.
Mr. Chairman, I am going to go to Economic Policy Analysis, 2.2.02. Under
Economic Policy Analysis, under .01, Salaries, I am just wondering how many
employees are hired there and if she could give us a brief rundown of the
description of what their duties are?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I believe I have outlined earlier the different positions of the employees of
Government House and I don't think it will be necessary for me to outline the
position and the work experience of each one, because I believe most people will
find them self-explanatory, such as private secretary, gardener, chauffeur and a
domestic worker. I'm sure the member opposite does not need for me to outline
work descriptions of all those positions. I feel quite confident you understand
what each person listed in those categories are able to do and what they
actually do.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you for that entertaining answer, I say to the
President of Treasury Board, but I was asking on Economic Policy Analysis. If
they have a chauffeur and a gardener for Economic Policy Analysis, I can
understand why that side of the House gives some of the answers they do. I guess
I will ask again if she can tell me under Economic Policy Analysis, 2.2.02, if
she can give me an idea of the number of employees that $216,500 paid for and
just a rough idea of what those employees do.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I feel quite confident the member opposite is
quite able to read his salary details and the full explanation as is contained
in the Estimates book.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, I say to the President of Treasury Board.
Under .03, Transportation and Communications, I wonder if the President of
Treasury Board can give us an idea of the $16,000 expenditure there and what
that was for.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: I would like to ask the member opposite: What category again
did you express interest in with that question?
MR. T. OSBORNE: The subheading is 2.2.02.03, Transportation and
Communications.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Under 2.2.02.03, Transportation and Communications, are you
referring to the $12,000 expenditure?
MR. T. OSBORNE: The $16,000 expenditure.
MS THISTLE: The $16,000 expenditure. That is the normal travel related to
expenses and telecommunications. It was a little more than was anticipated, by
an increase of $4,000.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, I say to the President of Treasury Board.
On that, I have just one final question for the President of Treasury Board
and then I will let one of my colleagues ask some questions as well, because I
know they are being very well informed this afternoon by the President of
Treasury Board. This is not only an informative debate in the House this
afternoon but it is very interesting, I say to the President of Treasury Board.
Under 2.2.03, Social Policy Analysis, last year we had an expenditure of
$8,000 under .03, Transportation and Communications, and we have $21,000 this
year. I was just curious as to what the anticipated increase in expenditure for
Transportation and Communications is for.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: The subheading you are referring to is 2.2.03, Social Policy
Analysis, number .03., Transportation and Communications.
In actual fact it was budgeted for $12,000 but it only cost $8,000 for travel
related expenses and telecommunication costs, less than anticipated.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have a few questions; I guess I will direct them to the President of
Treasury Board. Minister, under 2.2.07., Protocol, there is an amount in there
under Transportation and Communications of $250,000. I wonder, could the
President of Treasury Board explain to me what those expenses are for and how
they are going to be used, and who is covered off under Transportation and
Communications in this area?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The amount that you are referring to under 2.2.07., the increase is funding
for the Viking millennium celebrations, the anticipated expenses.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am not really sure if the minister understood what I asked, but I also
asked who would be covered. Who will access this funding?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Your question would be best directed to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and
Recreation regarding the Viking celebrations.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, the minister is in the House, so maybe if I
could direct the question to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
The President of Treasury Board said the $250,000 under Protocol is for the
Viking celebrations. I would like to ask the minister: Who is going to access
this $250,000?
CHAIR: Order, please!
Maybe the hon. member would like to repeat the question. Obviously the
minister wasn't listening.
MR. FRENCH: I would just like to ask the minister, under 2.2.07. on page
19, Protocol. There is an amount budgeted for $250,000 under Transportation and
Communications. The President of Treasury Board has told me that this funding is
for the Viking celebration. I would like to know who has access to this funding.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
MR. FUREY: I am sorry. I apologize to the hon. member. I was trying to
figure out where he was. I thought you were under Tourism but you are under
Executive Council, Protocol?
MR. FRENCH: Yes.
MR. FUREY: Under the Viking celebrations there are a number of guests
that we are inviting to the Province this summer. It has not been made official
yet because we have not had confirmation, but whenever you go for Heads of State
or royalty, you always budget under Executive Council, Protocol, for their cost
to come to the Province. For example, we have invited the King of Norway; we
have invited the Queen of Denmark; we have invited the Prime Minister of
Iceland; the Premier of Greenland, and all of these dignitaries from around the
world. The Governor General will be here for a number of occasions. All of that
will be funded through Protocol under that subhead for the Viking celebrations.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Minister.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Under the same heading in 06., there is an amount budgeted of $210,000 for
Purchased Services. I would like to ask the President of Treasury Board exactly
what kind of services we are going to be paying for out of that $210,000. Who,
again, has access to this funding?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, most of the money budgeted under that subhead is again for Viking
celebrations and it would include such things as receptions, banquets tendered
on behalf of government, and most of it will be related again to the Viking
cerebrations that are taking place this year.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
On page 18, Advisory Council on Economic and Social Policy, under
Transportation and Communications there is an amount budgeted of $78,500. Could
the minister tell me, please, who that money is going to be spent on, and why?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, can I ask the member opposite the subheading
for that one, please?
MR. FRENCH: The subject heading for that is 2.2.06. and it is .03. of
that same heading, page 18, I say to the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Is it 2.2.06.03., Transportation and Communications?
MR. FRENCH: Yes.
MS THISTLE: Last year we budgeted for $78,500 and there was only $61,000
actually spent last year. All of those costs are related to travel and
telecommunications, normal expenses.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Again I would like to ask the minister: Could she give me
some idea of exactly who would be traveling under the Advisory Council on
Economic and Social Policy? Are they civil servants, or are they committees
which government would form? Exactly how are we going to spend this money?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I do not have a detailed listing on who would be traveling under that
heading; however, the actual amount was less than forecasted. It would be
anybody traveling on government business; but the question that was asked by the
member opposite, I will endeavor, if he wishes to put that in writing, the
details of who would be traveling on government business that would make up that
figure, I will definitely be interesting in supplying him with that information.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, it is already in writing because it is recorded
in Hansard. I guess what I am asking here is: Is that funding that is available
to present Members of the House of Assembly for traveling on either side of this
House?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I was preoccupied at the moment, talking to one
of my colleagues, and I was wondering if the member opposite would ask that
question again.
Thank you
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, what I say was that this is already in writing.
It was recorded in the official record of Hansard. What I am asking, Madam
President, under the $78,500, is that funding that is available to present
sitting Members of the House of Assembly on both sides of the House? I want more
than an answer that: it is for telephones or whatever. I want more of an answer
to it than that.
I would like to know: Who has access of this funding? Do I have access to it?
Do you have access to it? Who can access this funding?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The amount referred to by my colleague opposite, under Transportation and
Communications, is basically designed for boards appointed, such as the Advisory
Council On The Economy and Information Technology. They would be one of the
boards using these funds. However, if you like other details - this one comes to
mind - I would be only too pleased to provide you with this if you would like to
write me.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to say to the minister that I would certainly appreciate
receiving something in writing as to exactly who has access to this funding.
Under Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat, page 19, I say to President of
Treasury Board, 2.3.01., Minister's Office, again there is an amount in there
of $50,000. Is that amount to be used by the minister and his staff?
CHAIR: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
MR. NOEL: That is the allocation for the minister and his staff for
travel and communications.
AN HON. MEMBER: It is too much.
MR. NOEL: I think the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi last year, when
he first saw the Budget, suggested it wasn't enough, that I should do more
travel and more work on behalf of the government, more work in Ottawa and other
places on behalf of the Province. I managed to keep within the limit of $50,000
last year and intend to do so again this year, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: The only thing I would like to say to the minister is that if
he has traveled from here to Ottawa to meet with Jane Stewart to work out the
major problems in the EI Program as they relate to the Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador, as they relate to my district, then maybe the minister should be
spending more money and we should be getting better answers as to why the EI
Program in this Province is the way it is: the stupidity, the utter nonsense
that this federal government has imposed upon us, upon some of our constituents,
and I say that to members on both sides of the House.
In my district we have Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. We have two people
doing exactly the same job, and they work side by side from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00
p.m or whatever their hours of work are. One fellow lives in Holyrood and the
other fellow lives in Seal Cove - you can spraddle the line between Holyrood and
Seal Cove - but the guy in Seal Cove needs more hours than the fellow in
Holyrood. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I spoke here a while ago, I say to the minister, on the problem with young
people who go back to school to better themselves. This EI Program we have
knocks them down every single time. I've had people who have given up jobs -
jobs that weren't paying very much money - to go back to either University or
trade school to do a course in computerization and this type of thing only to be
knocked down. They cannot receive one nickel, not one dime, I say to the
minister. Hopefully when he has some more discussion with Jane Stewart these
kind of things will be discussed and maybe there will be something placed in the
rules and regulations when I and other people in this House go down on Water
Street to do appeals. As a matter of fact, I don't know if it was the last
time or the second last time I was down there, I say to the minister, that I
told the board to have some guts, to have some nerve, to put some backbone into
themselves, to finally say no. Because something is in legislation doesn't
mean that it is right. Just because we record it and it is passed in the House -
whether it be this one or the House of Commons in Ottawa - doesn't make it
right. Everything that we pass here from time to time, or certainly that they
pass, will not be right and will not be equal treatment for the citizens of this
Province.
I say again to the minister that we should have more meetings with our
federal counterpart and we should be demanding answers to these questions. Why
have we changed the EI Program? Why have we allowed the EI Program to come to
the limits that it is at? Why does somebody in Seal Cove need 900-some odd hours
for EI but yet a person who lives in Holyrood needs less than that, and then
probably the person who lives in Harbour Main or Port de Grave where the
Minister of Fisheries comes -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
AN HON. MEMBER: You finally woke up, did you?
MR. FRENCH: You know?
AN HON. MEMBER: They have a good member.
MR. FRENCH: I don't know what they have. I would question that. Harbour
Main certainly has a good member, I know that.
Mr. Chairman, I say to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs that these
are the types of things I would like to see his department do more of and I hope
the minister takes that under advisement and does it.
I would like to ask the President of Treasury Board another question. On page
21, Madam President, we have the Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat.
Under 2.4.02, Aboriginal Affairs, there is an amount budgeted there for $330,800
for Transportation and Communications, 03.
I would like to point out at this particular time that we must have a flock
of people who do one heck of a pile of traveling, because if you were to add up
in this Budget the amount of money that is there for Transportation and
Communications, the amount of money that is there for travel in this Province,
it makes me wonder sometimes if we have anybody here looking after the shop.
I would like to ask the minister why the $330,800, and again, who has access
to this kind of funding?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
In response to the member opposite's question regarding Aboriginal Affairs,
2.4.02.03, Transportation and Communications, there was an amount of $330,800
forecasted but in actual fact only $200,000 was spent. The reason for this, and
the purpose of that particular line, is for land claims' negotiations. As you
recall, last year those negotiations were slower than anticipated, but we are
forecasting that same budget for this coming year, $330,800.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just have one more question. The day that we tried to announce the big
meeting in Churchill Falls, was some of the $330,800 that was spent, would that
have covered off the transportation of taking media and other people in this
Province in to Labrador?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think the statement that was made by the member opposite was probably in
relation to the previous year, 1998. I am reporting on the Estimates for the
year 1999-2000.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay
South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Because we budgeted $330,800 and only spent $200,000 and now we have it
bumped up again does not necessary make it right, I say to the President of
Treasury Board.
As well in there, there is $257,000 under .05, and again, last year we only
used $200,000, but this year it is back up to $257,000 for Professional
Services. I would like to ask the President of Treasury Board: Who are we going
to pay $257,000 to and what kind of professional services are we going to be
engaging? Is this for legal fees, or exactly what is it for?
CHAIR (Mercer): The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The subheading 2.4.02.05, Professional Services, most of these costs are
directly related to land claims' negotiations. Of course, the $257,000
forecast we anticipated would have to do with consultation, specialized research
on native issues including land claims, library and archival research,
translation services, academic research and
interpretation, all very important.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm sorry. I must apologize to the President of Treasury Board. I did not
hear the first part of your answer. Did you tell me that was for legal fees?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, what I did say for the Professional Services
indicated here in this category is we would be looking at consultation and
specialized research on native issues including land claims, library and
archival research, translation services, academic research and
interpretation.
They are very important as a furtherance of our land claims' negotiations.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have to repeat myself here, but we are certainly not going to use $330,000
in translations. I have difficulty here, Madam President, figuring out where we
are going to spend $330,000. I do not think it is fair to suggest that all of
that money is going to be used in translation services. That, to me, is an
unacceptable answer. I just want to know exactly: What are we going to do with
$330,800? I can do a lot of things in my district with that type of money. Again
I have to ask the President of Treasury Board: Exactly who are we going to spend
this money on?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I previously said, all of these are costs associated with negotiating the
Native Land Claims. If, however, the member opposite would like a more detailed
breakdown of expenses expended during the past year, I would ask him to make
that request in writing and I will be delighted to answer his request.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I am going to repeat what I said earlier. I don't think I should
write this down and send it to the minister. It is already written down. It is
recorded in Hansard. I believe that Hansard should stand in this House as my
record as to what I have asked for. I believe the President of Treasury Board,
if she doesn't remember the question I asked, then just look in tomorrow's
Hansard because the same statement I made earlier, I am making now. As far as I
am concerned, this question is already in writing.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have a few questions for the President of Treasury Board.
Just to start, one that struck my eye when the Member for St. John's South
was asking some questions on the Cabinet Secretariat, we see on page 16, line
item 2.2.01.10., Grants and Subsidies of $15,000. I was wondering what Grants
and Subsidies the Cabinet Secretariat would be principally responsible for to
the amount of $15,000, which seems to have been both budgeted and spent in the
past year and now budgeted again. What would those Grants and Subsidies be,
Madam President?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Subheading 2.2.01.10., Grants and Subsidies under Cabinet Secretariat, that
cost is as follows: C.D. Howe Institute annual subscription fee, $3,000; grants
to the Public Policy Forum, $5,000; The Canadian Policy Research Council,
$3,000; and the Institute of Public Administration of Canada, $4,000, for a
total of $15,000.
Thank you.
MR. CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I take it these are subscriptions for information services, are they?
MR. CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think it is very important that we keep an up-to-date forecast of what is
happening not only provincially but nationally and internationally. By
subscribing to these national magazines, we are in tune with whatever is
happening in the financial market.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Then perhaps I should suggest that the minister urge the Secretariat to
subscribe to the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) Monitor, which
is a monthly publication which provides policy analysis and some very
interesting articles as well.
Recently I drew to the attention of the Minister Responsible for the Status
of Women, and Human Resources and Employment, an analysis of the consequences of
the unemployment insurance changes which noted that women, for example, now only
qualify, if they are unemployed - only 30 per cent of unemployed women qualify
for UI. In fact, only 10 per cent of women under twenty-five, and 20 per cent of
men under twenty-five, qualify for unemployment insurance after these changes.
I would suggest that the Cabinet Secretariat ought to be kept apprized of the
studies and the work of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. It is
certainly equally as important as the work of the C. D. Howe Institute which
tends to be rather conservative in its analysis.
I was interested in the questions that were directed to the Minister of
Justice earlier today, and they had to do with Aboriginal Affairs. I was kind of
curious that the Minister of Justice - if I can get his attention - I was
interested in the questions directed to the Minister of Justice today, although
my current questions are directed to the minister responsible for Executive
Council.
When the minister responded to questions about Aboriginal Affairs, and about
the situation that the Innu find themselves in with respect to the ability to
adequately control and enforce regulations within their communities and have
some control over their communities, the minister was concerned that there was
no direct communication by Chief Riche - I think he called him Chief Penashue
but he meant Chief Riche - but then I looked at the Executive Council budget and
I see a tremendous amount of money available for Aboriginal Affairs and Labrador
Affairs.
For example, under heading 2.4.01. and 2.4.02., I see $388,200 for Executive
Support; another $1.5 million for Aboriginal Affairs; and a separate amount of
$279,100 for Labrador Affairs. I am wondering, Madam President, why is it that
if we are spending in excess of $1.9 million for Aboriginal Affairs - Labrador
Affairs - with giving senior level advice on matters pertaining to these groups,
policies respecting Aboriginals, the administration of the Province's
policies, formulating and implementing policies, why is it that these
expenditure are going on and yet the government has to watch TV and see on the
news, and find out through that method, the most severe and serious issues that
are facing the Aboriginal people in this Province, and as a result of that then
try to find solutions?
I wonder if the minister can explain how that can be?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This government is very, very sensitive to the issues in Labrador, and I
think our commitment to Labrador was clearly demonstrated in our recent Budget.
I would like to outline for the member opposite, the commitments that we have
made to the people of Labrador: $23 million in additional funding will be
provided for initiatives in the five northern coastal communities.
I was looking behind to see if the Member for Torngat Mountains was there. He
is not but he is listening. The initiatives are for the five northern coastal
Labrador communities: Nain, Hopedale, Rigolet, Makkovik and Postville. In
addition to that, $7.7 million will be provided over three years to improve
housing conditions on the Northern Labrador Coast. Together with the current
plans of the Torngat Regional Housing Co-operative and the Newfoundland and
Labrador Housing Corporation, this initiative will meet existing needs with the
construction of 125 new homes and renovations of 280 others.
Are we doing enough? Probably not. Are we doing what we can afford to do?
Yes.
There will $9 million provided through the Inuit communities agreement over
the next three years for water and sewer projects in five communities; $6
million over two years is allocated for community road upgrading; $280,000 is
committed for reconstruction of community wharves in Hopedale and Postville.
Enhanced policing services - very important - will be provided in coastal
Labrador in the communities of Makkovik, Postville and Rigolet. In addition to
those, this year government will spend $57.5 million on the construction of the
Trans-Labrador Highway and two highway depots in the region. Also, funding of
$500,000 is provided for the next Labrador Winter Games.
Any of you who have watched the Labrador Winter Games over the past month or
so - the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair stood in this House recently
and expressed her delight at the events of the Labrador Winter Games and
commended all of the participants for their great showing.
As I have said to the member opposite, these are some very important
strategic initiatives that this government has undertaken to address the social
and economic needs in Labrador. They are good initiatives and they are
initiatives that this government will build on over the coming years.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Perhaps the minister has inadvertently revealed the reason why they have to
watch TV to find out what is going on in Labrador. I listened very carefully to
what the minister said and she mentioned all of the expenditures and the
announcements that were made for the Inuit communities of Labrador. Not once did
she mention the Innu. Not once did she mention any Innu communities. Not once
did she refer to the problems that were discussed in the House today, questions
to the minister from the Member for Lewisporte. They were on TV last night and
talked about the problems that the Innu were having in Sheshatshu because they
didn't have a proper way of dealing with the regulations related to the
sniffing of solvents in their communities.
I am looking at the Budget here, line item 2.4.02, Aboriginal Affairs, and I
see something called Transportation and Communications. Last year the government
budgeted $330,800 for Transportation and Communications on the issue of
Aboriginal Affairs and I presume that would mean travelling to, visiting with,
communicating with the Aboriginal people of this Province, who happen to be in
Labrador for the most part. I see they only spent $200,000 of it. Perhaps the
minister could arrange for the people of Davis Inlet or Sheshatshu to explain to
the government - or have the government explain to them - how it is they could
talk about Labrador and the commitment to Labrador and the Aboriginal people
without once mentioning the Innu people - who have severe and serious problems
that have been recounted from time to time, most recently on TV last night - and
how it is that the government is not up to speed on those problems and not on
top of them, is not there working with the Innu communities to find ways of
doing it.
I know the Minister of Justice said today that there are Criminal Code
implications if we are going to outlaw glue sniffing, but this Province has
control over the storage, the handling, the sale of gasoline, which is the
principal solvent involved here. If the government was doing its proper job here
and spending this money in a proper way, under the heading of Aboriginal Affairs
policies and consulting, they would be on top of this issue.
I wonder if the minister can explain why it is they budgeted $330,800 last
year for Aboriginal Affairs and only spent $200,000 for Transportation and
Communications, and you are budgeting it yet again? Is there any special plan
that government has to deal with some of these problems that comes out under
these heads of expenditures, or are these expenditures designed primarily so
that the government can defend itself against Aboriginal land claims? Is that
the purpose of the government's attitude and approach towards the Innu? Using
the money to find ways of defending themselves against Aboriginal land claims
instead of looking for ways of supporting Native communities and Aboriginal
peoples of this Province so that they can find their own solutions? Is that the
priority this government, protecting us against land claims, or are they going
to do something to work with the Innu people to find solutions to these very
severe problems?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to thank the member
opposite for his question.
The funding you are referring to for Labrador communities, Native communities
and Aboriginal issues, crosses over all departments of government. I believe the
Minister of Justice during Question Period today gave an answer to your question
earlier.
Regarding the line you described, $330,800 that was forecasted under
subheading 2.4.02.03, the reason why that is less than we anticipated last year
is because land claims' negotiations have slowed down.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So I guess that is it. The Province's priority is the area of land claims
and not the area of supporting Aboriginal people.
MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, that is absolute nonsense. He knows it. He is
trying to score cheap political points out of a situation that all of us in this
House are concerned with and that is the conditions that the people, the Innu in
Labrador, are finding themselves in. I think there were some very good questions
that came from the Member for Lewisporte to the Minister of Justice, and they
were answered. We all have a concern about the situation with the Innu in
Labrador, in Sheshatshiu and Davis Inlet. He is standing up this afternoon
trying to score a few political points in an Estimates debate to just try and
somehow weasel some of his political fortune, improve his political fortune, at
the expense of people in Labrador who find themselves in a very grave situation.
My point of order is I think it is politics of the lowest order, and I would
ask the hon. gentleman to be more careful about what he says in the interests of
the people of Labrador.
CHAIR: To the point of order, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: There is no point of order, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
There is no point of order. It was just a lecture by the Government House
Leader because it is a very sensitive issue that his government has failed to
deal with. As the Member for Lewisporte said today, this issue did not arise
yesterday, this issue did not arise today, this issue has been going on for some
time. The question is: What is the government using the money under the heading
of the Province's policies respecting Aboriginals for if it is not using it to
help the Aboriginal people?
That was my question, and my followup question is under the subheading for
Salaries, 2.4.02.01. An amount of $608,000 was allocated last year by this House
of Assembly to the government for Aboriginal Affairs. Only $515,000 was spent.
We are, in fact, asking for a budget amount of $621,200 this year. Can the
minister explain why the $608,000 was not spent, what positions were not filled
or what hiring did not take place, and what is the additional amount of $106,200
over and above last year's expenditures related to?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think we got distracted by the gallery that time.
The heading that the member opposite is referring to is 2.4.02.01, Salaries.
There was a budget forecast of $608,000 and $515,000 was actually spent. The
reason for that is because one of the positions was vacant for part of the year.
There are actually eleven positions described under that salary heading. They
are: Executive Director, Director of Land Claims, Director of Policy and
Planning, Land Claims Negotiator, Intergovernmental Affairs Analyst I, Clerk
Stenographer III. Actually, there are five Intergovernmental Affairs Analysts
and two Land Claims Negotiators for a total of eleven employees with a salary
estimate this coming year of $621,000.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It seems obvious that the salary positions are weighted heavily towards the
whole issue of land claims which, of course, is very important, but what is also
very important is how the communities are able to cope.
Can the minister say what activities have taken place in the area of
Aboriginal Affairs for the Mi'kmaw who reside on the Island of Newfoundland,
outside of Conne River, the number of communities which have significant numbers
of Mi'kmaw people? What activity is government undertaking in relation to
policies and programs with respect to support for these communities under the
Aboriginal Affairs head and what progress does the minister anticipate in this
area in the next year?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to ask the member opposite to be more specific. Which
communities do you mean that are right here on the Island?
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Mr. Chairman, as the minister undoubtedly knows, or should
know, there are significant Mi'kmaw populations outside of Conne River on the
Island of Newfoundland in Glenwood, in Flat Bay.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) eight or ten.
MR. HARRIS: It is about eight or ten. I don't know if I need to list
them for the hon. minister. There are close to a dozen. There is significant Mi'kmaw
population in St. Alban's outside of Conne River. There is one in Flat Bay,
there is one in Glenwood, and there is one in - I don't have the list myself.
The government has a responsibility to develop programs for these people as
well. I am just asking the minister if she could outline what some of them are.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will be most pleased to take your question under advisement and answer it
in due course.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: On page 22, 2.5.01, Communications and Consultation, the
amount of $527,600 is voted. Can the minister tell us what activities this group
undertakes on behalf of the government?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: I wonder could I ask the member opposite to repeat that
question again? I was distracted there for the moment. If you would.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
On page 22, under 2.5.01, Communications and Consultation, there is an amount
of $527,600 for "promotion of public awareness of Provincial Government
programs, policies and services." Can the minister be a little more
specific about what exactly this group does on behalf of the Executive Council?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Actually, Mr. Chairman, are you referring to 2.5.01.05?
MR. HARRIS: If I may, Mr. Chairman?
CHAIR: You may.
MR. HARRIS: I'm looking at 2.5.01. The whole of that
section has
$527,600 under Communications and Consultation. It says: "promotion of
public awareness of Provincial Government programs, policies and services."
It doesn't seem to be much money in the way of supplies and information
documents, so they can't be producing much in the way of brochures or stuff
for distribution. I don't think they are the ones who produced the -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. HARRIS: The minister has gone from criticizing me for talking
politics in the House of Assembly so now he wants to talk about something else.
I think he is rather disturbed.
Mr. Chairman, the question is a serious one to the minister responsible for
Executive Council. The amount here, Salaries, is $380,600. I don't know how
many positions that is. The question is: What exactly do they do? There is not
much money in the way of supplies, so it doesn't seem to be something that is
the publications branch. Who exactly are these people? How do they get involved
with the "promotion of public awareness of Provincial Government programs,
policies and service"? What is that all about? Can the minister by more
specific about what they do?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In response to the member's question, for Communications and Consultation,
2.05.01, the total budget is $527,600. This division responds to inquiries from
the general public and it also provides for "the promotion of public
awareness of Provincial Government programs, policies and services." The
number of people working there is six: an Executive Director, a Director of
Communications, a Manager, Information Services, a Secretary to the Assistant
Deputy Minister, a Clerk IV and a Word Processing Equipment Operator I.
The normal activities there would be found in any department such as
salaries, transportation, supplies, professional services, equipment, property
and furnishings, the usual equipment and the cost of running a department like
that.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: We have the next item, 2.5.02, which is Internet Operations
and Graphic Support. Would that be the maintenance of the government's
existing Web site or is that some other activity involving electronic
communication service? Can the minister identify for us what 2.5.02 covers in
terms of activity within government with respect to Internet Operations and what
is called Graphic Support here?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The subheading 2.5.02 does actually provide for the administration and
coordination of government's Internet service. It involves a salary cost of
$80,000, forecasted to be $81,700 this year, the cost of two temporary employees
and the usual routine office supplies. In Professional Services, .05, we are
anticipating a requirement for the hiring of a design and development
specialist, along with the usual cost of operating and running an office like
that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate that your salary budget is used to hire people but I am curious
as to what exactly this involves. Is this the government's Web site or is it
something else? What is the activity other than the words that say here:
"...administration and coordination of Government's electronic
communications service"? What are we talking about when we are talking
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, the member opposite is quite right. The funding
under this category is to upgrade and maintain the Province's Web site on the
Internet.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: I have some questions under the Women's Policy Office, Mr.
Chairman, of the Executive Council. I note that Grants and Subsidies are
included under the Women's Policy Office under head 2.8.0l.10, in the amount
of $426,000, an increase from last year where it was $12,000. Can the minister
indicate what that subhead consists of? Is this support for the women's
centres? Where was this money coming from before? Because that, I don't think,
is a new program.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The amount indicated by the member opposite in 2.8.01.10, under Grants and
Subsidies, the $260,000 that you are referring to is provided for the
continuation of women's centres previously provided in other departments
throughout government; $156,000 is in new funding and is provided for
anti-violence work.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: If I have that right, there will be $156,000 for the
anti-violence program and $260,000 for women's centres? Is that the annual
grants of $30,000 per centre for, would it be, fifty-two centres? Is that it?
The last question is on 2.8.02, Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of
Women. In .10, Grants and Subsidies is at $203,800. That is the total grant to
the -
MR. TULK: Jack, you have four or five departments that team up money for
that (inaudible).
MR. HARRIS: No. To the point that is being made by the Government House
Leader, that amount has gone under Women's Policy Office now. It was coming
from other sources, I understand. It has gone from $12,000 last year to $426,000
this year and includes the $260,000 for women's centers. I think that came
from somewhere else.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. HARRIS: Yes, it's not bad.
My question I guess, is the Grants and Subsidies under 2.8.02. That entire
amount is for the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women, I take it.
Is that the case, Madame Minister?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, yes, I would like to say to the member
opposite, that is the annual operating grant. It is established by statute and
provides independent evaluation advice to government on women's issues. It
also provides the focal point for groups dedicated to the achievement of equal
rights and opportunities for women; and yes, it is an annual operating grant.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: My question is for the President of Treasury Board and is
under 3.1.06. Under 01. there, the salary that you are looking for in the Budget
for 2000-2001, $1,649,800; how many staff are employed under the Opening Doors
program? That would be my first question, and I know that that one will be
relatively short and quick. I would like to build another question in here. How
many individual with disabilities were employed under the program in the year
1999? How many individuals with disabilities were employed, and for how long was
the employment sustained? What I am asking is: How long do the jobs last? Do
they go a couple of weeks, a couple of months? What is the record of the Opening
Doors for finding sustainable employment for individuals with disabilities?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The member opposite has asked a very important question. The Opening Doors
program has operated for quite some time now within government and I am happy to
say that very many placements have occurred because of that program. In fact,
just recently we have combined with the federal government under what we call
the JEEPS program. We are now doing the placements for federal government for
disabled persons throughout the Province as well. The amount of people that were
actually placed during the past year, I do not have that figure available but I
would be most pleased to provide you with that.
May I ask you again what the other two questions were?
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: Well the most important part of this program - the first
question was: How many staff are employed in the Opening Doors facility itself,
in that office? I realize that is not a lot of people. The most important
component of this particular department or this particular project is - the
reason for it being is to provide employment opportunities program for persons
with disabilities. Because the budget for salaries alone is $1,649,800, I would
like to know how many individuals are employed. This is a fair expenditure of
money. How many persons with disabilities are employed? I think I asked that
same question last year in this same forum and I don't remember receiving the
information. That is one of the things that I am curious about. How many
individuals were employed and how long was the employment sustained? Are they
short-term jobs, and do the individuals then go back into the community? Or are
they long-term jobs? What is the success of Opening Doors? I realize that the
federal government has come on stream with JEEPS. The most important component
is: How many individuals with disabilities are employed, because that is the
reason for Opening Doors being in the first place.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The number of staff that are within Opening Doors that would really
administer that program are fifty-seven from different specialities. Of course,
when you look at making disabled persons job-ready, there is quite a bit of
training, resume writing and skills required to assist disabled persons in that
area.
Of course, disabled persons are hired on in both provincial and federal
government jobs right throughout this Province. The numbers - I don't have
readily available how many have actually found employment and those who have
been kept on in full-time and also part-time employment, but these are readily
available and I would be delighted to furnish you with that information.
All across Newfoundland and Labrador we are seeing people who are hired on,
disabled persons. This has been such a brilliant program since it started. The
fact now that the federal government has recognized the value of this program
and is contributing to part of the funding just solidifies the program itself.
It is designed to help disabled persons throughout this Province. Many have
benefitted from this program and many will.
I don't know if the member opposite has had the chance to actually visit
the Opening Doors location here in this building.
MS S. OSBORNE: I have their information.
MS THISTLE: I would like to invite any of the Members of the House of
Assembly and others, the general public, to actually visit the Opening Doors
department and see firsthand the equipment that is there and available to make
disabled persons job-ready for the job market. It has been such a great program
and many have benefitted from it.
With regards to the number of employees who are out there and still in
permanent and temporary jobs, that information I can make available to you at a
later date.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like the minister to consider this a formal application for that
information. I asked for it last year, as I said, and I don't remember
receiving it.
Of the fifty-seven people who are employed full-time, do you have a breakdown
of the types of jobs that are there? Are they all councillors, and are they
fifty-seven full-time jobs?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Yes, I do. There are a number of specialities throughout the
Opening Doors employment. We have a manager of programs for disabled persons,
local administrator, network administrator, computer programmer analyst, design
approval technician, computer support specialist, licensing auditor, computer
programmer, environmental specialist, environmental health officer, public
information officer, career councillor, social assistance worker, computer
support technician, statistical officer, information officer, storekeeper,
clerk, library technicians, computer operators, library technicians I and II,
clerk-typist III, accounting clerks, micro graphic technicians, word processing
equipment operator, data entry operator, clerk-typist II, mail and messenger
clerk, clerks I and II.
Many of the categories of people who are employed in Opening Doors cover a
wide range of job experiences and interests, so many of the people who are
applying for the first time need counseling as to what type of position to train
for and where the jobs are. By having these specialists on hand, we have a
resource of people who can assist both telephone inquiries and in person
walk-ins.
You may recall that last year there was a 1-800 line set up for the Opening
Doors program so people all over the Province now can call in and get the
information that they need without actually walking in, in person, into the
Confederation Building, so it has been a benefit for the entire Province.
The Opening Doors program is indeed a success storey. If you look around this
Province, you are seeing more and more disabled persons. It comes to mind that
when we were doing the transition, the Y2K transition, one of the key people
doing that rollover was a disabled person.
The benefit of hiring disabled persons and the dignity of work that comes
with it has been just a brilliant success story. It is an overall benefit for
everyone in this Province.
Thank you.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I say to the minister, I am interested and that why I asked for the
information last year. I really am interested in finding out how successful
Opening Doors is, how many people have been employed, how many people with
disabilities, apart from the fifty-seven who are employed in the framework
office.
I would like to move to Strategic Social Plan 2.7.01., and that is on page
twenty four. What was estimated in the Budget last year is $290,000 and then it
was revised up to $340,000. What new position or positions were created that
were not planned for in the Estimates? Also, how many new positions are
estimated to be created to bring that amount up to $696,000, which is an
additional $356,000 from last year to this year?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have a late breaking news announcement. I cannot remember which member
opposite asked me the question. I think it was the Member for St. John's South
who asked the question: What happened to the furniture that was out of date and
had to disposed of by the Lieutenant-Governor's establishment?
I would like to bring you this important news at this time. The reason, so
far - there is $5,000 in the estimate and the actual was $3,450. For the
listening audience here in this House, I would like to give this very important
piece of information.
Number one, it was to replace the fax unit.
MS S. OSBORNE: That was not his question. In his absence, I will do his
question again.
MS THISTLE: In doing so, the old unit was returned to the Department of
Works, Services and Transportation for disposal. Two, purchased a tabletop
copier to increase capacity, and a new filing cabinet. I hope that answer will
suffice.
MS S. OSBORNE: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, before the hon. minister answers
the question that I asked -
CHAIR: I am sorry. The Chair has not recognized the hon. member.
The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to go back to the answer that you just gave. That is all very
interesting, and it sounds like it is office equipment. I think the question
that he was asking is: What is the overall policy of the government to dispose
of the furniture - all that gorgeous stuff that hangs around Government House -
when they are finished with it? You do not need to answer it now, but that was
his question.
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I believe that overall policy rests with the Minister of Works, Services and
Transportation regarding disposal of assets. I am quite certain that the
appropriate minister will be able to give you that information.
Regarding your question on Office of the Executive Council, 2.7.01.,
Salaries, the reason for the forecasted increase is basically to implement the
Strategic Social Plan project. Funding for 2000-2001 provides for the
establishment of regional steering committees and associated activities, plus
grants to regionally based organization.
I would like to say, as the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans who has already
been involved with the implementation of the Strategic Social Plan in Central
Newfoundland, that it is a social plan that works. There has been so much
involvement from the community at large in Central. It was a good initiative and
it is one that we can be proud of. It is working all over the Province.
Regarding the cost you i