March 28, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 7

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before I call the routine proceedings, I want to inform the

House that it is with regret that I acknowledge that I have received a letter

from Mr. Douglas Oldford, informing me of his resignation as Member of the House

of Assembly for the District of Trinity North, and Deputy Speaker of the House

of Assembly, effective today, March 28, 2000.

In his letter of resignation, Mr. Oldford cited medical reasons

for his decision to resign as the Member of the House of Assembly. He has also

asked me to convey his best wishes to all his colleagues here in the House of

Assembly.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, it is with regret that I have

been informed today that the House will lose its Deputy Speaker, a senior member

who has served this Province well for more than nine years. Doug Oldford, a

respected colleague of all members of this House - that respect in evidence by

virtue of his discharge of his responsibilities as Deputy Speaker - has informed

me that due to medical reasons he can no longer carry on his service to the

people of Trinity North in this House.

Over the last decade, Doug Oldford has worked tirelessly for the

people of his district and indeed for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

He was first elected in a by-election in 1991. He was successfully re-elected in

1993, 1996, and again a year ago in 1999. He served in the positions of Chairman

of committees and as Deputy Speaker of the House of Assembly. Doug has been a

conscientious, tireless representative on behalf of the people of his district.

He is known as a fighter for social justice, well-known for the special emphasis

he placed on the most disadvantaged amongst us in this society.

Mr. Speaker, I recall very well in the early days of the cod

moratorium, when I was Minister of Fisheries and Oceans in Ottawa, the many

representations that Doug Oldford made on behalf of those who were affected by

that terrible disaster.

Mr. Speaker, among his numerous accomplishments for the District

of Trinity North are the new Middle School in Clarenville, the re-development

and ambulatory care project at the Dr. G.B. Cross Memorial Hospital in

Clarenville. In fact, I think it is fair to say and it should be said that Doug

was very instrumental in last week's Budget's announcement of a kidney

dialysis machine for the region.

I would like to commend Doug, and all of us as well, for his

valuable contribution to tourism growth and to the development of the Trinity

area.

Prior to his election, Doug worked as a bank manager. He was a

vocational school instructor, and was an apprenticeship officer with the

Department of Labour.

Mr. Speaker, the District of Trinity North has been accustomed

to conscientious service by their member. It is for that reason that I made a

commitment to Doug, as recently as this morning when I talked to him, several

hours ago, to call a by-election as soon as possible so that the service to the

people of Trinity North would be as little interrupted as possible. Therefore, I

am today calling a by-election in the District of Trinity North for Tuesday,

April 25, 2000.

Mr. Speaker, Doug has had some health challenges in recent

months. I think many members of the House, on both sides of the House, have been

aware of that. The record should show, because it is true, that Doug has been

encouraged by colleagues on both sides of the House to take the time necessary

to restore his health. I think it is fair to say that members on both sides

would have encouraged that, members on both sides would have supported that and

would have understood that. Indeed, that is a tradition in this House - one of

the better traditions of this House - the way in which the House, in a

non-partisan way, closes ranks around those who require the support of their

colleagues, and that has often been demonstrated on both sides of this House.

Both he and his family have come to the conclusion at this time

that his first priority is to restore his health and then to ensure that he

carries on his obligations to his family. All of us here understand that, and

all of us here support that.

I know I speak for all members when I say to Doug that we thank

him for his contribution to this place. We thank him for the good humor and the

good judgement and the good fellowship he brought to his role as Deputy Speaker.

Every one of us wishes him nothing more than that most precious and important

gift of all, and that is the gift of good health. May it be restored to him

soon, and we wish he and his family the very best in their retirement years.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me first of all offer to Mr. Oldford and his family our best

wishes on this side of the House. I had a good personal relationship with Mr.

Oldford. In my former capacity as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee - Mr.

Oldford was a member of that Committee - I got to know him very well.

In this place, which is a partisan place, it can be said, I

think, with certainty, that Mr. Oldford, while carrying out those duties, was

many times a member among members, and in some ways the least partisan; and he

upheld, I think, in many ways and in a number of circumstances, the

parliamentary tradition that would be afforded to some people as statesmanlike,

if I could use that term. Doug certainly had that respect, I know, from this

side of the House.

I can only say to his family that - first of all, to reiterate

what the Premier has indicated in terms of the support that would have been

there for Mr. Oldford had he decided to take some time away from his elected

duties because of personal health reasons, that certainly on many occasions in

this House, when personal circumstances have dictated a member's response to a

very personal situation, I think it is one of the hallmarks of people who sit in

this House that all members, irrespective of political stripe, have rallied to

support.

I want to ensure publicly that people understand that we would

have, in every way, shape and form, afforded Mr. Oldford that opportunity should

he had chosen to do so, but he has not. I can only say on behalf of the Official

Opposition that we wish both his family and, more importantly, Mr. Oldford well.

I know the medical reasons he has cited are serious. I spoke to him several

weeks ago and it was very clear that he was having some difficulty.

I will pass on my own personal message to Mr. Oldford some time

later today. Once again, we wish him well and hopefully, please God, the measure

that he is taking today will alleviate some stress and put him back on the road

to good health.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is with great regret that I learned today that Mr. Oldford's

health was such that he felt that it required him to resign his position as a

member of this House, as the Member for Trinity North. I too have known Mr.

Oldford since he has been here. He was a real gentleman and a gentle man who

served conscientiously, with humor and partisanship, in this House. I served

with him on committees and he certainly was there with the cut and thrust of any

member in terms of handling the responsibilities on those committees, and was

conscientious in this House and to his constituents.

It is with regret I say, Mr. Speaker, when someone's health is

such that his first priority has to be looking after that responsibility and

that of his family. It is with regret that he is unable to serve in this House.

I want to join in wishing him improved health, and wishing him and his family

continued recovery and, hopefully, happier circumstances.

I would join as well with the Premier and the Leader of the

Opposition and say that members of this House recognize that personal

circumstances or health may cause them to be unable to preform all of their

duties from time to time. That is understood and accepted, and it is never to my

knowledge taken advantage of in a partisan way.

I do respect the opinion and the decision of the Member for

Trinity North, Mr. Oldford. He is the one who has to determine what his

priorities are. I respect his decision and wish him and his family well in the

future.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: May I just conclude by moving that the

Speaker, on behalf of all Members of the House of Assembly, write to Doug

Oldford, to his wife Judy and to his family, to express our appreciation for his

service as a member of this House, but more importantly for his service as our

Deputy Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of that motion?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Carried.

Before we call the routine proceedings I would like to welcome

to the gallery today twenty-one grade IX Social Studies students from Whitbourne

High in Whitbourne, in the District of Harbour Main-Whitbourne, accompanied by

their teacher, Mr. Shawn Rowe, and chaperones Mrs. Louise Drover and Ms Cathy

Lynch.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Over a ten day period, starting on April 5 and ending on April

14, the Corner Brook and Pasadena Ministerial Associations will sponsor a

complete reading of the Bible. This reading, known as Proclamation, will take

place at St. Mary the Virgin Anglican Church in Corner Brook. First started in

the spring of 1995 at Rosemary, Quebec, the Proclamation on the leadership of

the Canadian Bible Society has spread throughout Canada. Last year it was held

in fifteen locations including a first time reading in Newfoundland and Labrador

at the St. John's West End Baptist Church. The Corner Brook-Bay of

Islands-Humber Valley Proclamation will consist of 1,310 individual readings and

will involve over 500 readers from thirty-five different churches.

be done in Hebrew, Greek, Portugese, German and French as well as by individuals

using Braille. I ask this hon. House to join with me in extending

congratulations to the Canadian Bible Society and the Corner Brook and Pasadena

Ministerial Associations in bringing this worthwhile Christian project to

Western Newfoundland.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform members of the House of a very exciting

event that took place in Labrador West this past weekend. The Menihek Nordic

X-Country Ski Club held their twenty-fifth annual ski run, commonly known as the

Labrador Loppet. This involves a ski race from Fermont, Quebec to Labrador City,

a distance of twenty-seven kilometers.

This year approximately 250 participants of all ages took

part

in the event. Skiers came from places as far away as New York, Maine, Quebec

City, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Scotland, Goose Bay, Churchill Falls,

Sept-Isle and the Island portion of our Province. One couple even came to

celebrate their twenty-fifth wedding anniversary as part of a vacation to ski

the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Loppet.

Alf Parsons, a well known local skier, finished the twenty-seven

kilometers in a time of one hour and twenty-one minutes, quite a remarkable

achievement.

Menihek Nordic ski trails are world class, hosting events such

as the World Cup. It has also been used as a training center for both national

and international cross-country ski teams.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to congratulate the Menihek Nordic Ski

Club and the many volunteers and organizations who gave a lot of their time and

effort to again make this annual event successful. This is truly a community

event with a community effort.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: Appreciation is extended to Air Nova and the

Iron Ore Company of Canada who helped co-sponsor this event.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to join with you and the members of this House in

welcoming Mr. Shawn Rowe's grade IX Social Studies class from Whitbourne High.

I am indeed very proud to speak on behalf of these students and the school

itself.

I understand from the teacher, Mr. Rowe, that they have waited

eagerly to visit the House and see for themselves democracy in action. I am even

more impressed that they are going to be staying for Question Period, where they

will certainly see democracy in action.

Their school, Whitbourne High, has had a long history of

excellence due to the dedication of the teachers, parents and the community.

Along with Mr. Rowe today are of course some chaperones: Mrs. Louise Drover, a

parent; the bus driver, Mr. John Hepditch; and the IT specialist, Ms Cathy

Lynch. I congratulate the group on their interest and the school for encouraging

these worthwhile field trips. Keep up the good work and have a safe journey

home.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to stand in the

House today and report that this morning government gave a progress report on

the Public Service Commission's Graduate Recruitment Program.

As part of the Public Service Reform Initiative, the Graduate

Recruitment Program began last year to foster the continual development of our

professional public service workforce.

Since 1997, government has been involved in Public Service

Reform. This entailed numerous developmental opportunities for current members

of the public service including bargaining unit and management employees. A $2

million Organizational Development Initiatives Fund was established to foster

the development of the public service. Programs such as Frontline Leadership

Training, departmental and strategic planning initiatives and professional

development opportunities have been made available to all employees as part of

Public Service Reform's ongoing commitment to the renewal of public service.

To ensure that the Province continues to have competent,

educated and experienced professionals in the public service, the Graduate

Recruitment Program was undertaken. For the fiscal year of 1999-2000, the Public

Service Commission received funding to recruit five recent graduates from

recognized post-secondary institutions. These graduates were the top candidates

selected from over 500 applications. The five candidates are in the gallery

today, along with Chairman and CEO Mr. Fonse Faour, and I would like them to

stand and be recognized if they would: Krista Barnes, Ken Sooley, Douglas

Sparkes, Robyn Montague and Robert Simons.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS THISTLE: To build on our current success with this

initiative, and in our continued effort to meet the needs of our public service,

I am pleased to announce that we are continuing and expanding the Graduate

Recruitment Program. This program will now be an ongoing initiative of the

provincial government. Combined with the recent five recruits, approximately

fifty new graduates will be hired through the program over the next three years.

Graduates will be hired into entry-level, unclassified,

non-bargaining unit positions and rotate through at least four work assignments

over the next two years. The work assignments will provide a valuable experience

for graduates and, in return, the recruits will provide a benefit to the

departments they serve.

After a competition process which includes a screening for

qualifications, the public service entrance exam and an interview stage,

successful candidates will be offered a position in the two-year program. While

the recruits are eligible to apply for competitions during their internship,

they will be encouraged to complete the program, thereby giving them a more

comprehensive skill set and better opportunities throughout the public service.

Selection of the candidates for the program is conducted by the Public Service

Commission in response to a public advertisement for the program.

This program has been developed in response to the demographic

of our present public service. In the next five to ten years, it is anticipated

that a number of our management group will be eligible for retirement. This fact

strongly indicates that the government needs to be proactive in its human

resource planning. Our latest initiative, combined with others arising from

Public Service Reform, will attract the best and the brightest to the provincial

public sector and will also show graduates that there are good opportunities for

a career with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House want to join with the minister

today and offer congratulations to the five candidates who are in the gallery.

We believe the that government has a responsibility to seek out in Newfoundland

and Labrador those young men and women who are in their post-secondary years and

who wish to join the public service. We commend the minister, we commend the

government, because we believe that there are great merits in planning a career

in the public service.

Minister, I want to say that we look forward to more statements

like this, making opportunities for young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to

work and be employed right here in their home Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to congratulate the first five recruits into this

program. It is noteworthy that there were over 500 applicants indicating a great

deal of interest from post-secondary graduates in a career in the public

service. This program will serve to enhance the image of work in the public

service and the professionalism in the public sector, in the public service of

this Province. I think it is a very good program and I congratulate the Public

Service Commission on its work in building this program. I hope the government

continues to support this for the next three years and expand it, if possible,

as the demand within the government exists to have more recruits fresh out of

our post-secondary institutions.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to inform my hon.

colleagues of the allocation of a grant of $25,000 to big Brothers/Big Sisters

of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: This is in addition to the $50,000 contributed

annually to the organization by the Department of Education.

It is a happy coincidence that this new grant is for $25,000,

since this is the twenty-fifth anniversary of Big Brothers/Big Sisters in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

The organization, whose mandate is to provide quality mentoring

programs to children and youth in our Province, was founded in St. John's/Mount

Pearl area in 1975 and has expanded across the Province to include offices in

Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Stephenville.

This new money will help Big Brothers/Big Sisters increase the

number of adult matches available to children in the program, increase the

number of caseworkers, and also help to develop and implement new programs such

as Life Choices for girls and Right for Me for boys - programs which help equip

children and youth with the information they need to make important decisions

about life choices.

I am pleased that government is able to help support

organizations such as Big Brothers/Big Sisters, that do such important work for

the children and youth in our Province.

Government supports, through the Department of Education Youth

Services division, over forty groups and organization, such as Cadets, Boys and

Girls Clubs, Skills Canada, the School Lunch Association, Girl Guides and the YM/YWCA.

Last year, over $600,000 was granted and the budget for this year is nearly a

million dollars.

I am sure my hon. colleagues will recall that just a few short

weeks ago, the hon. Premier and I had the pleasure of witnessing a school

breakfast program in action and announcing $1 million in endowment funding for

the School Children's Food Foundation. This was in addition to government's

previous investment of $1 million in the foundation in 1998.

I am very pleased that government is able to support the efforts

of Big Brothers/Big Sisters, and many other organizations that work hard to see

that the children and youth of our Province have the opportunity to take

part in

programs that help to enrich their lives.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, to the minister, good news. The youth of our Province

certainly are in need of boosts such as these and I would take my hat off, as

all my colleagues on this side would, to the volunteers, especially in Big

Brothers/Big Sisters, who give so (inaudible) of their time. The needs of our

youth have to be addressed, they need to continue to be addressed, and again to

say to you to continue the effort to reach out to the youth of this Province and

to make sure that the funds are available to action these types of things.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, applaud the efforts of the minister in the addition of

$25,000 to Big Brothers/Big Sisters. We believe it is important because Big

Brothers/Big Sisters are dealing with kids who are less fortunate than the

majority in society. I think that, with the efforts that are made by the people

who are involved in Big Brothers/Big Sisters, they can have a very profound

effect on the life of young people, as I say, who are not fortunate enough to -

as most of the children in our society are.

I think that the new programs such as Life Choices and Right for

Me are programs that certainly will enable young people to deal better with

their life, as they are going through it at this age -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: - and the additional money will certainly be of

use to the many volunteers who are involved in making this program work.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, last fall, my predecessor, the hon. Joan Marie

Aylward, announced the formation of the Teen Tobacco Team. These teams and this

team was set up to advise government on issues related to youth and tobacco, and

in particular to help us reduce the amount of smoking among the young people in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

During National Non-Smoking Week in January, the team launched

their first promotional campaign through a poster which has been distributed to

schools around the Province, and by assisting in the development of the Class of

2000 Smoking Prevention Program Scholarship.

The Teen Tobacco Team met for a second time this past weekend to

discuss the Province's legislation respecting tobacco and smoking, to provide

input into a new web site which will be targeted primarily toward young people,

and to offer suggestions for the comprehensive public education campaign to be

launched by the Alliance for the Control of Tobacco later this year.

During their visit, the team also had a chance to review a

smoking cessation program aimed specifically at teens. Today, I am pleased to

tell you that the team has endorsed the Kick the Nic 2000 program.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, today I am officially

launching the Kick the Nic program in Newfoundland and Labrador as part of the

provincial Youth Tobacco Strategy. Information related to that program is

attached to this statement.

The program was developed in British Columbia and will be

piloted in schools in Western and Central Newfoundland, and in St. John's this

spring. Eighteen health professionals from the six Health and Community Services

regions were trained earlier this month, and are tasked with recruiting and

training program facilitators to deliver the program to teens in communities

throughout the Province. Early next year, Kick the Nic will be implemented

Province-wide once the pilots have been completed and evaluated.

Through the Kick the Nic program - language adopted by the teens

themselves - the Teen Tobacco Team, and other initiatives, the Province's

Youth Tobacco Strategy hopes to send the message to our young people that

smoking kills. I ask each Member of the House of Assembly to take up the

challenge of working with youth to educate them on the dangers of smoking.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly would like to thank the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs for the advance copy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I might add that we support any program that

is going to stamp out smoking because smoking has an untold cost on our system.

I might add, while they are enjoying it, maybe we should call it: In the Nic

of time.' That might be a better name. Have our own original name rather than

adopt one from BC or somewhere else. We would like to kick the nic but we would

like to do it in the nic' of time.

We certainly endorse the program. I think it is youth today

where the problem begins. That is where it has to focus. I certainly compliment

the minister and the previous minister on getting a program started with youth

in our Province and getting youth involved in it. Because if youth do not get to

play a

part in it you cannot dictate to them -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I support it, I said at the time. Youth

involved in making decisions affecting youth is a lot more beneficial and gets

better results than people like ourselves trying to tell them what is best for

them. We endorse it. It is a good program to continue anti-smoking programs, and

especially targeted toward youth because you get the most productive return on

your investment there.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hope that this program works. It sounds pretty cool, Kick the

Nic. I hope it makes smoking not popular. It is something kids do because they

think it is cool to do. I hope this works in stopping it.

We hear about this all of the time. There is another thing we

need to hear about more. Maybe the Minister of Justice can tell us about the

government's lawsuit against the tobacco companies. The Premier announced in

in June 1997. He announced it again in the election of 1999. The next time there

is an election we will hear about it again, but where is the lawsuit? BC has

started one. The Americans have already collected on two or three. What is this

government doing in terms of getting money from the tobacco companies which are

poisoning our young people and poisoning our population with their tobacco?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The most important and most current issue facing the people of

the Province today has been the news that was leaked from a document from DFO

recommending, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, a possible 50

per cent reduction in the quota of the crab stock this year with recommendations

of 20 to 25 per cent. Had it not been for this leaked document, it is entirely

possible that today in the House the lead off question would have been

different.

I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries this question.

With respect to the information contained in that document, was he aware, prior

to this document being leaked, of that information? If he was, when was he made

aware, either by his federal counterparts or others, of the state of the crab

stock in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: There was no leaked document. I was made aware

of the information three weeks ago.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the

announcement of the quota could be made as early as this afternoon. Has the

minister been informed of what will be contained in that announcement? Or has he

been made aware that there is an announcement going to be made? This is my

information. If he has not been made aware and there will not be, has he been

informed by his federal counterpart, Minister Dhaliwal, of when the announcement

will take place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, DFO scientists gave a briefing to

my officials and myself and people in the industry the week before I went to the

Boston Seafood Show.

AN HON. MEMBER: March 4.

MR. EFFORD: March 4, that is correct. At that time it was

given also to FANL, which represents the processing industry, and

representatives of the harvesting industry. So there was no information kept

from anybody in the industry. After the initial discussions, I then had a

followup meeting with scientists in DFO, and since that time we had a Fisheries

Forum 2000 here in St. John's where scientists came in and made a full

presentation to all of the people who attended that forum. So there was no

information kept from anybody.

As far as the crab quotas in the year 2000 - are you talking

about crab?

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: As far as the quotas being announced today, no,

Mr. Speaker. There were industry consultations that took place in Grand Falls

yesterday. There are industry consultations taken place here in St. John's

today with 3L fishermen, and in Labrador tomorrow with the 2J fishermen. As soon

as the industry consultations are concluded, that information will be sent off

within two to three days to the federal minister. He has agreed to make an

announcement on the quota within a few days after that information is sent from

industry consultations to his office.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is an important issue, because the growth in the shellfish

fishery is probably one of the single biggest contributors to the growth of our

gross domestic product in terms of driving the economy in real value, in jobs,

in money that circulates in the economy, in corner stores, in car lots, et

cetera.

Yesterday outside the House the Premier told reporters: No one

should be surprised by the sharp decline in the crab biomass. The premier said:

Crab is cyclical, and for the last couple of years we have been fishing at the

top of the cycle catching two or three times as much as we did four years ago.

So if that is the case, if you and the Department knew that it was cyclical, and

that the decline was inevitable, why did the provincial government, through the

Department of Fisheries, both the Minister of Fisheries and the Premier,

support, publicly, giving the impression and enticing people into the industry,

the three year crab management plan, where people spent literally millions of

dollars to invest in this industry? Now they are to be left with uncertainty,

based upon your advice enticing people in, to be left now with uncertainty of

where their investment will go.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: My hon. critic for Bonavista South has very

little knowledge of the fishing industry, but the Leader of the Opposition has

less knowledge of the fishing industry, because everything that he just said is

a distortion of the real facts. What the Premier said last evening is: Nobody

should be surprised about what is taking place in the crab fishery today,

because over the years, with the cyclical situation with the crabs, you do have

periods -

MR. TULK: General knowledge.

MR. EFFORD: General knowledge, nature's own hands. You do

have period of declines. In Alaska today there may be a small fishery this year

and there will be none next year, because they did not have the science

information on hand which we have today. We now know there is a problem in

recruitment. We can make some adjustments in the quotas this year and next year

to prevent a total collapse. I think it is wake up call, I think it is good

news.

The other thing we should not be doing is placing all of our

emphasis on just one species. We had an experience on the northern cod with

that. I have been saying that for the last four years. We should be

diversifying, we should be looking at other species. Yes, the crab will be cut

back some this year, we don't now what amount, but it is a preventative

measure against the total collapse of the stocks. By taking those measures we

will have some short-term pain for some long-term gain.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is a typical Liberal minister way. This

has become characteristic of any questions that have been asked in this House by

any one of us. The minute they have a tough question to deal with, a serious

question that deserves a serious answer, what is it? They try to distort the

individual. They will not deal with the facts of the matter. That is what this

minister is trying to do again today, as that minister did, and as that minister

has done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Now minister, let me ask you this question.

Yesterday you said in the House, and I will quote for you, this: Nature will

also play a role in what will happen and I am worried about where we are going

in the future. In his own document, Fisheries Forum 2000, let me quote for him.

He says: In order to sustain our fishery for the long-term we must be

conservation minded and ensure that only prudent management measures take place.

Are you convinced that with the knowledge that you have had

about the cyclical nature of crab on the one hand that you have advised people

properly in the industry, that you did not put their investments in jeopardy,

and that the practices that you have been following are indeed sound and prudent

management?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. In fact, about six

weeks ago I took a lot of abuse from small boat fishermen in Newfoundland and

Labrador who asked for an increase in quota. I said very clearly I will not

support any increase in quota based on economics, based on selfishness, based on

the demand for more, unless it is based on good, solid science. Unlike one

federal minister from the Tory government in Ottawa who was part of doubling the

science quota and caused the collapse of the groundfish stocks!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: This minister, under this government, will not

support the increase of any stocks only based on good sound science. I have said

to every fishermen in Newfoundland and Labrador for the last four-plus years: Be

careful of where we are going in the future. Diversify! Look at other

opportunities, because even if the scientists increase the quotas based on good,

sound science, you can never predict what nature is going to do. So be careful

where we are going in the future. That has been the sound, solid information,

prudent management, from this minister and this government.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this is the same minister who

stands on his pedestal today who in the last three years since becoming minister

has doubled the capacity in processing in this industry.

Let me ask him this question. If he is so concerned about

science, the federal government - and I will remind him of something. Dhaliwal,

the Liberal federal ministers over the last four years in particular, when we

have needed science the most they responded the least. I will ask you this. What

have you done in terms of the provincial ministry to ensure that we get more

science? Isn't it about time to follow maybe a recommendation that we made to

you, that we made to the people of the Province during the recent election,

where we said: In view of the fact where the federal government is not

supporting the people of this Province, or are not in terms of fishery science,

isn't it about time that we take matters into our own hands? Isn't it about

time that we put in place a watchdog sort of organization, partially funded by

ourselves, to ensure that the science that we depend upon so much, that we are

not now getting from the federal government, we can do ourselves to ensure the

sustainability of the industry? Why won't you take that action, minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, this minister will take second

place to no former Minister of Fisheries. This minister will take second place

to nobody.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: How do you call doubling the number of plants

when we have reduced the plants from 245 so-called fish plants in this Province

to fifty-seven? Now that's doubling; 245 down to fifty-seven. When there were

seventeen crab processing plants in the Province there was a quota of 16,000

tonne. Today there are thirty plants in the Province and there is a 66,000 tonne

quota. There used to be a monopolization of the crab fishery. We have brought

some regional balance to the processing of the crab fishery around Newfoundland

and Labrador. We had that discussion in the Estimates Committee this morning

when the critic from Bonavista South said we had too many and his colleague from

Triton said: Oh no, I want my plant in Triton. So get your act together over

there.

Mr. Speaker, there is science in DFO. Is there enough? No, there

is not enough. We have called for more and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Canada within days will be announcing more science for DFO, not only in

Newfoundland and Labrador but in Atlantic Canada as a whole, not only to study

the crab stocks but to study all species of fish

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture as

well. I say to the minister that while he is quick to accept credit, he is very

slow to accept responsibility. It was only three weeks ago that I heard the

minister calling back from the seafood show down in Boston, talking about him

being down there trying to secure markets; and all of a sudden this fear was

drifted over the Province of Newfoundland that there might be a cutback in crab

fish stocks; there might be a cutback in the total allowable catch in crab.

The minister said: Take it easy, this is just one piece in a big

puzzle. What you are doing is stifling my progress down here in order to create

markets.

What the Leader of the Opposition was saying as it relates to

expanding on the processing sector of this Province was not groundfish. It was

shellfish, I say to the minister.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to now get to his question.

MR. FITZGERALD: The minister, during his term in the

fisheries portfolio, has doubled the number of licences issued to crab

processors, and existing processors have expanded their operations. In view of

the fact, Minister, that the crab stocks were at their cyclical peak, does the

minister now think that it was wise to approve such a massive increase in

production capacity?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do consider it prudent to do

what we did in the past, increasing the number of processing plants in the

Province. First of all, there was a quota of 16,000 tonne. There were seventeen

licences owned by seven companies. Do you remember the cartel? Do you remember

the monopolization? Then the quota went to 66,000 tonne, and then we increased

the number of processing plants around the Province on a good regional balance.

Now if the Opposition, all members, wish me to decrease it, I

can take three out of the Opposition House Leader's district, I can take one

from Triton and one from the Member for Bonavista South, and then maybe we will

have enough in the Province, if that is what he is saying.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the people in the fishing

industry, I am sure, will be glad to hear what the solution is to the problem.

This is what we have been hearing from this minister on a continuous basis, I

say.

This member here has warned the minister about issuing new crab

processing licences from the very beginning. The alternative was to use existing

capacity.

Does the minister know how much money was invested in new plants

and equipment as a result of his promotion of a drastic expansion in processing

capacity in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, in 1996 one of the first things we

had to do as a government was write off $26 million of unpaid debt by former

ministers, by former governments handing out money to the fishing industry in

this Province.

MR. TULK: What about the middle-distance fleet? (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: And the middle-distance fleet, in excess of -

how many?

MR. TULK: Twenty-nine million.

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-nine million.

What I have done since I came with this department, with the

support of my colleagues in Cabinet, is not put one nickel into the industry

whatsoever in building processing plants where there is crab, cod or shrimp; not

one nickel. It is has been totally industry driven, and if somebody out there

wants to buy new equipment, wants to expand their plant, that is up to them. Has

there been too much money invested? No, Mr. Speaker. There has not been too much

money invested because those people who will be processing crab and other

species have been doing very well on the 66,000 tonne quota, what used to be

just a few short years ago 16,000 tonne.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister can tell the House how many of the

processors he licensed since he became minister have recovered their investment

into this particular fishery? Then he warned them at the time that crab stocks

were not sustainable. Did he warn them, as the Premier said, that crab stocks

have a shelf life of five to six years, and that they could lose their total

investment into this particular fishery.?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Do I understand the member right? Did I advise

Vic Young, CEO of FPI, did I advise Pat Quinlan, owner and operator of the

Quinlan and Quinsea Seafood Products, did I advise Carl Sullivan, Bill Barry of

Seafreeze, that they may or may not be making a wise investment? No, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly did not. I would not consider my expertise up to their

equal in managing their own business.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further to my question on March 23 to the Minister of the

Department of Development and Rural Renewal with respect to the Auditor General's

report, and the wasting and loss of $60 million by his department, why did you,

as minister, permit loans to companies that were in arrears on existing loans,

or when there were indications that these companies were not acting in good

faith? Hasn't the Tobin administration now created their own file gate

scandal?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say to the hon.

gentleman that the figure of $60 million that has been lost, that he talks about

- the Department of Development was put in place April 1, 1996. In its first

year its budget, including the Special Reserve Fund, was $18 million; the next

year the budget was $7 million; the next year that the Auditor General reports

on, there was $7 million as well. Eighteen million plus $7 million is $25

million, plus $7 million is $32 million.

Let me say to the hon. gentleman that if we had lost every cent

of it, how does his mathematics square with sixty million bucks?

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cape

St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would take the Auditor General's

figures any day over those of the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal. I

can guarantee you that.

Mr. Speaker, I will ask the minister this question: Why were

three projects pre-approved under the Strategic Enterprise Development Special

Reserve Fund, before the board of ENL or the department became involved -

another ten and three-quarter million, I say to the minister? Why were proper

procedures not followed in approving those loans?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me also say to the hon. gentleman

that in terms of his $60 million that was spent -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I will get to the question. I have no problem with

answering questions for the hon. gentleman.

Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman that in terms of

the loan of $60 million that the Auditor General refers to, if he read the

report closely he would see that the Auditor General did a number of cases, took

a number of cases out of that report. Some of them came from April 1, 1996 to

January 31, 1999. Of the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Just a minute, I am about to get to it.

If he looks at the allowance for doubtful accounts -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: In terms of the allowance for doubtful accounts,

the Auditor General points out that 25 per cent of the money that has been

loaned, let me say to the hon. gentleman, by a former government, by the Rideout

government, by the Peckford government - she goes back to 1987 - all of the

loans are not even ENL's. She goes back to one, for example, in the

aquaculture industry that was, I think - the file was started in 1987.

Let me say to the hon. gentleman that in terms of what the

Department of Development and Rural Renewal lost -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: - in that allowance for doubtful accounts is 7 per

cent of 25 per cent. I wonder if he can make that up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and concerns the

conduct of genetic research in the Province. Is his government going to continue

to permit the exploitation of the people of this Province with the unregulated

collection of genetic materials such as happened with the snatch-and-grab or

stab-and-grab approach taken by the organization from Texas? Or will he take

steps to require proper ethical standards in the conduct of this research,

counseling for participants regarding possible family consequences, or proper

protection from the implications for life insurance for people involved in this

approach. Is he prepared to take these steps to protect the people of this

Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

No to the first part, and yes to the second part.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal

Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, what is his government prepared to

do to ensure that the participants in this genetic research will benefit from

the results of this research, and what is he going to do to ensure that such

research takes place here in this Province, and also that the people of the

Province as a whole benefit from this research?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is understood in Newfoundland and Labrador that this

is a ground that is very fertile and ripe for genetic research, and that genetic

researchers from all over the world would like to have better and increasing

access to work in this particular Province.

We are currently having an assessment done on a special contract

with a consultant to advise the government as to the proper legislative and

regulatory regime so that we can have all of the moral and ethical issues, as

well as the administrative issues, with respect to genetics research properly

placed before this Legislature, before the business becomes the booming business

that I understand he wants it to be. Because he is suggesting that we want to

attract more of this work and this effort to Newfoundland and Labrador, but we

want to make sure that the appropriate safeguards are in place, and we are

having that studied extensively at this point.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is a sense of urgency about this particular activity

because companies are already operating here. How soon is the government

prepared to respond to this circumstance and attempt to put in place proper

regulations and proper procedures?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: At the very earliest opportunity, Mr. Speaker. I

am sure the hon. member would agree there are a series of very complex and

important issues surrounding the whole basis of genetic research. We want to

make sure it is a fundamental basis for a good program in Newfoundland and

Labrador with continuing valuable research done here and that it is done on a

proper basis so that we can protect the individuals involved, protect the

information, and make sure we are doing it right, and doing it right here in

Newfoundland and Labrador. At the earliest opportunity we will be bringing

something forward.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Health and Community

Services. A new study completed this month is being carried out to assess the

quality, validity and viability of agency provided health care and to recommend

an action plan to enhance the sustainability of the sector. This report,

entitled Home is Where the Care Is: Home Support Agencies Beyond 2000 ,

puts forth thirty-two recommendations covering all aspects of home health care,

including training, wages, administration, the whole gamut basically in the

delivery of home health care.

The report states, "It is feared under the current

framework, the Home Support Industry cannot provide the quality of service that

is required and there is concern that the current quality of service will

deteriorate if the situation does not change..." given challenges facing

the industry such as confusing legislation and regulations, lack of clear

standards, severe shortage of skilled workers and recruitment and retention of

skilled workers.

I want to ask the minister - and I am sure he has probably seen

or read this report - is your department now actively working to implement an

efficient and standardized home health care program for this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House

Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: I asked him had he read the report? Is his yes

to reading the report or yes to implementing a program for a standardized health

care in the Province? Or yes to both?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Just the latter at this point, Mr. Speaker. It

is my understanding, actually, that the report the hon. member is holding in his

hands is to be released publicly in the Province on April 3. We have been

provided an advanced copy, as he has, so that we could have some advance notice

of what the thirty-two recommendations are. The officials have been working with

this issue for some time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame, shame!

MR. GRIMES: In fact, Mr. Speaker, it is already on our

agenda as a major item to be discussed with the federal Minister of Health,

Minister Rock, at a meeting in May so that we can join with the Government of

Canada, hopefully, in a national Canadian home care program. We recognize that

despite the effort in Newfoundland and Labrador of going from a $3 million

program ten years ago to almost a $40 million program today - so we have almost

a thirteen-fold increase in the program in a decade - there are a series of

participating funding partner so that we can at least double our effort over the

next few years in home care in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House

Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm glad the minister said he has an advanced copy because I

did not, and I did not know it was going to be released. I happened to get

access, through a source, to try to get my hands on a copy. It was not provided,

I might say to the minister quite clearly, and I am delighted now he said it is

going to be raised on April 3. That is new information to me.

The federal government is contemplating funding a national

health home care program. I am sure there will be certain standards and

guidelines the federal government will want to make sure this program has

universal application and is an accessible program. Is the minister currently

addressing the deficiencies in our provincial health care system now so we can

maximize the benefits to our Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are maximizing the benefits available in our Province at this

point in time. Even from year over year, we have gone from a funding level of

some $27 million last year to what will be almost $40 million this year, which

is almost a 50 per cent increase in one year alone for home care and home

support.

We are doing two things. We are trying to make sure that we

provide better conditions for the workers who are providing the much needed

service, and secondly we are trying to broaden the base for those who need the

service so we can offer more of it. We would certainly welcome the participation

indicating so that we can broaden the service and, hopefully, also increase the

benefit levels for the service providers.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister said we are maximizing the service. That is not

basically as I understand it, and the deficiencies in this report will tell you

otherwise.

Minister, in some regions of this Province health care in the

home, or home health care as we call it, is denied, even though clients have

been assessed as needing that service. In certain regions of the Province now,

because of limited funding, needy people have to wait until somebody in that

region dies before they can get on the list.

I want to ask the minister this. Is he now addressing this

they live in a specific region of the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I think there is a dangerous

premise being suggested here which is not applicable. There are not different

rules in different parts of the Province with respect to access to home care.

There are consistent rules in every region of the Province. There is a budget -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I was making a point. There is a

budget which when the budget is exhausted no further service can be provided.

Depending upon how and what time of the year the budget gets exhausted, it

determines whether or not there is a waiting list and how long it is in certain

parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. There are not different rules. There are

consistent rules. There are budgets. There is a limit which the government can

spend on any service including home care in any one year, and in fact in some

districts, in some regions, they get further into a fiscal year before they have

to cut off any additions to the service than they do in others. It is not

because there are different rules. It is because there are fixed budgets in

every region for home support and home care. Some people run out of the ability

to add new service earlier than others.

MR. SPEAKER: There is time for one quick supplementary.

The Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister has said there are standards and consistencies

across the Province. That is exactly not so. There are people in certain regions

of this Province denied care because they happen to live on the Burin Peninsula

or elsewhere.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his

question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Is he aware that

access to home health care is not standard across the Province? Because

different boards have different budgets, and there are different wages paid to

health care workers to work in those homes in the Province. That is not the same

standard, I say to the Minister. Is he aware of that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, there is one standard in the whole

Province which is this standard: If a board exhausts their budget no further

service can be provided in the fiscal year. That is the rule in every board

depending upon utilization and need in any one area. Some people have to deny

service earlier in a fiscal year than others, and that is a function of the

demographics of the area, not a function of any change or difference in the

program.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Pursuant to

section 49(2) of the Financial Administration Act, I

wish to table the attached list of treasury loans raised under

section 48 of the

act since the last report to the House.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a petition here regarding some housing needs through

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing in the area of Shea Heights. It is an issue

that I have raised with the previous minister. I have not had a chance to go

into great detail with the current minister. I have advised her briefly prior to

the House today. I will be making a formal request to her on this.

The petition reads as follows:

We, the residents of Shea Heights, wish to petition the hon.

House of Assembly to address the needs for wheelchair accessible housing units

in the Shea Heights area. We are asking the government to consider the fact that

people with disabilities and their families need to be able to utilize the

support of family and friends within the community of Shea Heights. If persons

are forced to live in units outside the community it compromises the help and

support families so vitally needed. We are asking that serious consideration be

given to the construction of wheelchair accessible units in the Shea Heights

area so families with physical disabilities may avail of essential support

networks, meaning those offered by family and friends and neighbors within the

communities that they grew up in and lived in for a number of years.

Barring the ability of government to construct wheelchair

accessible units, what we would like to see is for government to make some of

the existing units within the Shea Heights area accessible to wheelchairs so

that people with disabilities can have greater access to public housing units

within the Shea Heights community.

Mr. Speaker, at present there are no truly wheelchair accessible

units in the Shea Heights area. Ideally, what we would like to see is the

construction of at least a couple of units that are truly wheelchair accessible

in that community.

Shea Heights is a very close-knit community and it is really

unfortunate that members of that community with disabilities or with wheelchair

needs are asked to leave their community to seek public housing in areas outside

of the Shea Heights area, in other areas of the city. It is important that they

are close to their family, friends, and neighbors where they can gain extra help

and extra support. In a lot of cases within the Shea Heights area, as I have

said, it is a very close-knit community and there are far greater support

networks and family networks in that area than there are in other areas of the

city.

Again, I respectfully request that government take a look at

this petition and give serious consideration to the petition.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 1. It is called the Budget

Speech. I would like to rename it and call it the Jack Byrne show.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have been looking forward to this moment because I am going to

give the true story of what is happening in this Province today. I am going to

give the true story about this Budget, the Budget highlights. I am going to be

general in nature in the beginning. I am hoping to go on for a certain length of

time in my mind. I am not sure how long it will take. It depends on how long my

voice will last.

I will tell you this, that I found a new job for the Minister of

Finance and the Premier. We all know the Premier is not going to be around much

longer. We know he has ambitions to go up along or somewhere. The Minister of

Finance, his new job when he leaves government is going to be this. He is going

to go to Halifax or he may go to Las Vegas, but he is going to find a casino for

himself and he is going to become a card shark. I will tell you why. This Budget

should be called the slight of hand budget. What you see and what they are

telling you and what you get are different things, I say to you. I will give you

a few examples as we go along.

Mr. Speaker, we have often heard the saying: You rob Peter to

pay Paul. That is what is happening with this Budget.

MR. HARRIS: Who, Paul Martin?

MR. J. BYRNE: There is a comment here from the Member for

Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi: Who is he talking about, Paul Martin? Robbing Peter to

pay Paul.

Basically, they are robbing from government departments or

government Crown agencies to help balance the budget. We have seen it over the

past few years where this administration are taking the quick fix. In due course

- I have lots of time - I will get into that.

Basically, we have the Budget Highlights here and I am going to

address some of these here now. It talks about the fiscal performance for

1999-2000. It says it is the fourth consecutive year the government has met or

bettered its fiscal target.

Mr. Speaker, when we have an administration that are, as I said

before, robbing Peter to pay Paul, it is not too hard to do that. When they are

telling the people one thing and doing another, it is not too hard to do that.

Over the past few years, of course, what we have seen from this

administration is that they have been saying there are no tax increases, but

what we did see was licenses, fees and permits doubling, tripling and

quadrupling. They are charging rates on permits today that were never charged

before. I will get into that in due course. Probably on Thursday or Monday, I

will address those concerns with respect to the licenses, fees and permits.

I see the Member for Bay of Islands over there shaking his head

and smiling in agreement with what I am saying, the smile that we often get from

that side of the House of Assembly. Again, we have the Minister of Fisheries who

so often, when he is up - and we have the critic for fisheries, the Member for

Bonavista South, putting the minister in his place all the time.

I have to make some comparisons here. We have the critic for

health on this side of the House, who knows more about health concerns and what

is going on in this Province with respect to health than any member on that side

of the House. We have the critic for fisheries on this side of the House who

knows ten times what the Minister of Fisheries knows, although he thinks - the

Minister of Fisheries, that is - that he has all the answers; but, we saw our

Leader today asking the Minister of Fisheries questions that he could not

answer. As a matter of fact, I think he was rather embarrassed. I think the

Minister of Fisheries was embarrassed with the answers he was giving here today.

I know if I was Minister of Fisheries, I would be embarrassed. There is no doubt

about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) cancel the boat trip.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is the thing I am expecting. Thursday

night - I wasn't in attendance, but I would have to say - another embarrassing

night for the Minister of Fisheries when he saw the Tories bid $1,700 on an

afternoon with the Minister of Fisheries. I can tell you one thing, Mr. Speaker,

if I was there at that meeting I would have donated the money and said no to the

trip. I can guarantee you that. I would never be caught with the Minister of

Fisheries on the bay for an afternoon. My God!. I will tell you why: because if

the situation was reversed, the Minister of Fisheries would not be caught with

us. I can guarantee you that. So, I expect the $1,700 for that donation to the

group is going to become $3,400, because I expect the Minister of Fisheries to

buy it back. He is going to buy it back. I wouldn't put it past him. Only for

he is so tight you can hear him squeaking, he probably would do that.

With respect to the Budget, here is the situation. I will tell

you where the slight of hand comes in. We have a projection here under the

fiscal performance, projected deficit at $32.8 million. In the Budget itself we

have a contingency fund of $33 million. If you look at the figures by the

Department of Finance in this Budget - which we know are not accurate. We had

the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal today answering questions, my

questions. He was trying to get up and deflect the issue again and say that the

Auditor General was wrong in her figures. Mr. Speaker, how ludicrous. How

ludicrous is that, when we have the Government House Leader trying to say that

the facts and figures of the Auditor General are not correct?

I have had a lot of dealings with the Auditor General over the

past few years, as Chairman of the PAC. We have had a number of public hearings

and I have yet to come across her figures being wrong. The Minister of

Development and Rural Renewal would try and have you believe that they were

wrong; again, trying to deflect away from the issue.

He never answered my second question with respect to why there

were approvals - pre-approvals - given for three projects worth somewhere around

$11.8 million. Why were the pre-approvals given before the Board of Directors of

ENL were informed, before the department were given? Because, of course,

politics, patronage, that this government is so rampant at. Patronage everywhere

you look. We have the Public Tendering Act destroyed, and I am going to get into

that on Thursday or Friday. We have the Public Service Commission destroyed,

literally, and we had the minister today having the gall to stand up and talk

about the Public Service Commission, when it was put in place in the first place

by a Tory administration to try and straighten out the previous administration,

Joey Smallwood's era, when we put the Public Service Commission in place, when

we put the Public Tendering Act in place, and we have that crowd on that side of

the House literally destroying it for all intents and purposes.

The Minister of Development and Rural Renewal has the gall to

stand in his place today and question the figures of the Auditor General. How

foolish.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I took it right out of the book. It is

right here. Oh yes, here it is, I say to the member: Only 25 per cent of the ENL's

total loan and equity portfolio of $78.2 million is estimated to be recoverable.

Now, figure it out, I say to the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): On a point of order, the hon. the

Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, let me just

say to the hon. gentleman that the statement that he just made comes right out

of the Auditor General's book, absolutely. What he does not do is - further

along the way, the Auditor General says: When I step outside of the accountant's

role, the ENL collects 65 per cent of all of its funds.

What he also did not say is that ENL has been named fifty-two

times by the Auditor General as being responsible for those loans - when in fact

the Department of Development was only responsible for 7 per cent of them, ran

back in the days when the Member for Lewisporte was the Premier, was responsible

for I think it was $4.8 million of them, and that a previous administration in

this Province was responsible for some forty-eight.

My question to him was: How does twenty-eight, seven - $25

million and $7 million, $32 million, add up to $60 million? It cannot be done.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I think it is 99 per cent now he is batting. No point of

order, as usual, abusing the House. The Member of the House of Assembly who is

supposed to show decorum, is supposed to have respect for the rules and

procedures of the House, is the one who abuses them the most, I say to you, Mr.

Speaker. He should be taken to task on that one of these days, I suggest.

Back to the fiscal performance of 1999-2000 in the Budget

Highlights.

MR. ANDERSEN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains, on a point of order.

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Speaker, I was listening to the Member

for Cape St. Francis speak and he made a statement about twenty-five paragraphs

back when he said that the Member for Bay of Islands was shaking his head in

agreement. Mr. Speaker, I do believe that it is nodding your head in agreement.

I know that he is an hon. member so I want to give him the chance to correct

himself.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Member for Torngat Mountains, a well-respected

Member of the House, no doubt, and, as we know, works hard in his district and

what have you, thank you. Please interject as often as you like. I appreciate

it, I say to the member. The Member for Bay of Islands was over there nodding

his head in agreement. I would think, knowing the Member for Bay of Islands - I

think I heard him speak in the House of Assembly before, and I know he has a

tongue - I am sure he is well able to speak for himself, I say to the Member for

Torngat. Would the Member of Bay of Islands agree with that? I think he would.

MR. JOYCE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands, on a point of order.

MR. JOYCE: I would just like to tell the member opposite,

I wasn't shaking my head in agreement. I was shaking my head, telling you that

House is closed on Friday. It is open again on Monday.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I have heard tell of sign

language before; but nodding your head as sign language, I didn't really pick

up the message, I say to you.

Let's get back to the Budget. Here we have the member, Sir

Gisborne of Bellevue -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I will let that go, Mr. Speaker.

We talk about: a stronger year-end position will allow the

Province to defer certain revenues, 2000-2001, and to make strategic investments

of $70 million before year end; $48 million targeted to health care.

Forty-eight million dollars, that is what they are saying they

are putting in health care. We have in this Budget - we'll find it somewhere

else - they are saying they are putting $136 million into health care. Do you

see the trickery going on here?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, Sir Gisborne of Bellevue asked me if

this is my maiden speech. I have been in this House for seven years and I would

say that if the Member for Bellevue spoke - I am sure I can count on one hand

how often he has been on his feet. He may have been up a few times more, not

very often though. I will probably, one of these days, get some Hansards and

send them out to his district. Maybe four or five times; you can count on one

hand the times he made sense, I say to the Member for Bellevue, and to say: Is

this my maiden speech?

He couldn't hold a candle, time wise, in speaking in this

House of Assembly, to me and to every other member on this side of the House. We

have members on this side of the House who have been here just over a year, who

are speaking more in this House of Assembly. He has been here, what? Ten years

you have been here - eleven years - and he is supposed to be a pro at it. When

he gets up over there... That is another thing, too, that I have noticed lately,

which was brought up in the House the other day, of course: his suits, all these

new suits.

Actually, I really thought the last time when there was an addition to

Cabinet, that it was going to be the Member for Bellevue; but no, it was not. I

will make another prediction. The next time around is not going to be the Member

for Bellevue either. You know who it is going to be? Over there in the corner,

look, the Member for Torngat Mountains. That is who it is going to be.

That is the last time, because after the next election, if you're lucky, I

say to the Member for Bellevue, - if you are lucky - you are going to be on this

side of the House. If not, you are going to be out of the House altogether,

gone. That is a fact. Mark it down, on March 28, at 2:52 p.m., that the Member

for Cape St. Francis said that to the Member for Bellevue - gone, one way or the

other.

AN HON. MEMBER: I will be asking you questions (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You could very well be. I t could very well be happening, I

say to the member.

We have here the Budget outlook. I am only going to touch on the highlights

of the Budget this afternoon because, as you can see, I am well prepared. This

is my response to the Budget.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Loyola.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? Anyway, I can guarantee you one thing; the

Member for Ferryland knows more about health care than the previous minister,

the current minister, and the previous, previous minister, the Minister of

Finance today, combined. He knows more than that, I can guarantee you that.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is why he was a good teacher. (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I didn't know him when he was teaching. I cannot comment.

I can only comment on what I know to be happening in this House of Assembly.

That is what we do on this side of the House. We criticize the government on

that side of the House, and we know what we are talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are just an old surveyor. That is all you are.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have been surveying the situation on that side of the

House. Do you want me to talk about it? Do you want me to tell you what is going

on over there? Do you want me to tell the Premier where he is going to be in a

year to eighteen months? Do you want me to tell you about the Minister of

Fisheries, how it is going to come down between him and the Minister of Health

for the leadership?

AN HON. MEMBER: Where do you expect him to go?

MR. J. BYRNE: He is going to be out of here. He could be out of this

Province. He may be in politics, but he may not be.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, he will be in Ottawa, if he is in politics, but he may

not be.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, neither.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Possibly.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) congratulate him.

MR. J. BYRNE: When it happens. When it happens again, I will congratulate

him for being out of the Province, there is no doubt about that, because the

Province will be much better off when he is gone. We will have a new election,

and we will have the Leader of the Opposition today become the Premier of this

Province. That is when we will start to see things happening in this Province,

and we will stop seeing the trickery, the smoke, the mirrors of the budgets that

you are bringing down here all the time.

With respect to the Budget Outlook 2000-2001, we have: responsible financial

management allows us to make a modest deficit of $34.7 million. I kind of

touched on that. If you take out the $30 million, or if you factor in the $30

million of the contingency fund, the deficit is actually $4.7 million, according

to their figures; but I am going to talk about, in due course, how that figure

is really upwards of $300 million, the deficit of this Province, and what we are

going to be facing a year or two down the road because of the quick fixes of

this administration. We are going the see the cash crunch coming. We are going

to talk about what is going to happen to the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Even a further blow with respect to the financial mismanagement of the

Province, the financial trickery of this Budget, if, in fact, the crab fishery

is impacted upon like we have been questioning on this side of the House, and

the revenues from the crab fishery have not come forward to the Province, this

Province is going to be in even worse shape.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: What?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If the revenues with respect to crab - the reduction in

quotas.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You are the one who said it. The Minister of Fisheries is

the one who said it, that we are going to have to cut the quotas. If you cut the

quotas, obviously there is going to be less crab caught. If there is less crab

caught, there is going to be less people fishing. If there are less people

fishing, just think about the spinoffs. That will be addressed over the next few

days also.

It says here that the government has a $30 million contingency reserve

maintained. Maintained? Thirty million dollars of the contingency fund

maintained. Again, what is that going to be? How is that going to be utilized?

What is this Province going to do with that? Is that going to be another slush

fund for this administration to put into - when elections are coming near, that

they can pump money right, left and center and not really care about the

consequences of it.

I remember in the last election, which was only a little over a year ago,

when some of our policies were being put forward with respect to the payroll

tax, with respect to the income tax and what have you. This administration, led

by the Premier and the Minister of Finance - the present minister of Mines and

Energy - laughed and ridiculed, said it could not be done. What did they do?

They went out and did the very things we were preaching.

The Liberal Government in Newfoundland and the Liberal Government in Ottawa

are - I will give them credit for one thing; they are good at stealing our

ideas.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not accusing anybody.

MR. EFFORD: Be careful of what you are saying.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know what I am saying, I say to the member. I never

pointed anybody out. I said the government here and in Ottawa are good at taking

our ideas, stealing them and trying to call them their own. Again, we know what

happens there.

I am going to have to calm her down a bit because my voice has to last

another two-and-a-half hours. So I will try and keep it down a bit.

Highlights - no new taxes in this Budget. Again, another trickery, another

misrepresentation of the facts. I suppose that is parliamentary.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Two per cent.

We have the payroll tax, and they are saying they are going to increase the

ceiling on the payroll tax. That is a good thing, I say to you, no doubt in my

mind. We on this side of the House have been opposing the payroll tax for years,

since it was first brought in by the previous Premier Wells. It was really a tax

on jobs. Can you imagine anybody in their right mind creating a tax that taxes

jobs?

MS S. OSBORNE: In a Province where there is 17 per cent unemployment.

MR. J. BYRNE: In a Province where there is so-called 17 per cent UI, but

in reality it is probably more like 20 per cent or 25 per cent - a tax on jobs.

I was involved in a small business at the time, and I saw the impact that the

payroll tax had on small businesses. When they first brought it in the ceiling

was $300,000. If you had a company and you were paying out $300,000 you would

pay taxes on it, but if you had a company that was paying out, say, $150,000 you

didn't have to pay the payroll tax. That was pretty bad. I thought that was

disgusting. A year or two after that, what did they do? They reduced the ceiling

from $300,000 down to $100,000. In Newfoundland there are small companies, and

they have four or people employed, which are going to hit that target. Now we

had people in private industry saying: We won't hire that position now, we won't

fill that position, because if we do that we will be over the $100,000 mark and

we have to pay taxes. Absolutely ridiculous.

We have this Administration today saying there were no new taxes in this

Budget, but with respect to the payroll tax they spread it out. There are

companies now paying the payroll tax that haven't paid it before. The pulp and

paper is one, for instance, that is now paying the payroll tax.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are not complaining about that (inaudible)?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I am. The Member for Topsail, Mr. Speaker, is saying:

You are not complaining about that. Is the Member for Topsail in his right mind,

I say? You agree that we should have taxes on jobs? If you were going to create

a few jobs tomorrow we should tax those jobs? That is a disincentive, I say to

the Member for Topsail. It is no wonder, if you have that type of thinking over

there, that this Province is so far behind. There are so many issues that are

going to be addressed over here in the next little while.

In this highlights again, we talk about the economic performance, 5.3 per

cent real GDP growth in 1999. The Premier is so often known to be praising the

GDP in the Province but when you compare it to other provinces - I have my facts

and figures on that. Again, I am going to be going into more detail as the time

goes on with respect to these issues, but the true picture will come out in this

House of Assembly over the next few days. We will make sure that the people in

this Province understand what is happening with respect to this Budget, the

slight of hand Budget.

Then it talks about a 5.5 per cent employment growth in 1999 that is double

the national pace. That in itself sounds great, but after the cod moratorium and

we were so far down, when you compare it to other provinces, we are not even

near to the level where we were back in 1992. The other provinces are proceeding

on all the time. We are talking about the rate? There is a big difference in

reality and I am going to get into that. I have my facts and figures here on

that, I say to you.

Here we go. The real GDP growth of 4.7 per cent in 2000 is expected to lead

all provinces for the third consecutive year. Again, when you look at the gross

domestic product and we try and compare it to other provinces, a true picture is

not being given here. We are looking at it in seclusion and not what has

actually happened with respect to the past number of years on where we were and

how low we were and where we are going.

With respect to the GDP, just in passing, we are not progressing as fast as

the other provinces. The other provinces are far ahead of us and I will address

that in due course, in my figures.

Health care is the top priority. Mr. Speaker, this is a farce.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thirty-one point seven million dollars is all that is shown

in the Budget (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I know, that is what is in the Estimates, $31.7 million,

but look at it. Just to give you an example of the trickery - the word I am

going to use very often in this speech today with respect to the Budget - just

listen to this. It says here under one of the bullets, under health facilities -

the Member for Ferryland, I know, will correct me if I am wrong on this - that:

Work continues on construction of facilities in Gander, Old Perlican, Fogo,

Bonne Bay, Stephenville, Grand Falls-Windsor and Grand Bank. It says work

continues on construction in Grand Bank, but I was speaking to someone the other

day and the facility in Grand Bank is not even started yet. It says: Work

continues. That is stretching it. It is semantics. Nothing, not a piece of soil,

no excavator. There is nothing done yet, and they are here trying to give the

impression that that building is under construction; and that permeates this

whole Budget, Mr. Speaker.

Now health care as the top priority. I have to go back to the federal budget

on this. We had the federal Budget 2000 come down. What had happened the night

of the budget? I remember looking at the Budget on television and we had the

Minister of Finance saying what a great budget the federal Budget was. They had

a little bit of problem with health, but other than that it was a good budget.

Shortly after on Newsworld, I think it was, we had the Premier of the Province

disagreeing completely with the Minister of Finance.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) not true.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I will get you copies of it, (inaudible), Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) copies (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: How much money are we getting for health care from Ottawa?

MR. TULK: Not enough (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Not nearly enough. I agree, I say to the Government House

Leader.

MR. TULK: You agree with me. How much (inaudible)?

MR. J. BYRNE: It is frightening, I say to the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal, that you think you and I are agreeing. I say you should give it

some more thought.

What is going on here, what we have seen over the past number of years - and

this needs to be cleared up - is that we saw the federal government cut as much

as $125 million a year from the CHST, and they are talking about giving us back

$11 million a year over the next four years. Eleven million dollars versus $125

million per year. It's a joke. This Administration, the Minister of Finance

and the Premier, should be highly insulted, they should be offended, they should

be rip-roaring mad. Here they are willing to accept this, $11 million a year

compared to $125 million.

With respect to the trickery of this Budget, what is this Administration

doing? They are taking four years again, the quick fix, four years up front. I

think it is working out now to be $43.8 million or $42.8 million of the CHST for

health care this year, putting it into the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, $43.8 million is what I said. It is close enough. Did

you ever hear tell of rounding off figures in high school or in grade II or III

or anything like that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh yes, you need not worry.

Mr. Speaker, anyway, they are taking that quick fix again to try to give the

impression that the Budget is balanced. If we look at previous years, from

memory, I think it was Term 29 last year and they took in the tens of millions

of dollars, I am not quite sure of the figures.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: How much? The year before. Tens of millions of dollars will

not be there next year. The CHST, $40-something million, will not be there next

year.

The South Coast ferry system -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't care. It is a Liberal administration. He is

trying to pass it on like this government so often does. I would say to the

Minister of Development and Rural Renewal and the Government House Leader, it

will soon be time. You are in power for eleven years and it soon will end, by

the way, thank God, but it will soon be time for this Administration to take

responsibility for their actions and their inaction or non-action, I say to the

minister. How long are you going to go back?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I have to save my voice. I will gauge that.

How far is this Administration going to go back? How far? One comment today

was: Why don't you go back to the Commission of Government? As a matter of

fact, this past weekend there was a - I will not say symposium, but there was a

get-together with a number of people talking about the Amulree report which led

to that. I wanted to attend it but I couldn't. I would have loved to have

attended that.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I am telling you, I would have because I know where I would

have been back before pre-Confederation days if I was involved in politics.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) Commission of Government, all right.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. TULK: You (inaudible) Commission of Government, that is where you

would have been. (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I wonder. I would have been, there is no doubt in my mind.

I think I would have been one of the ones that would have been there fighting

for Newfoundland, I can guarantee you that. Just imagine giving up a country,

giving up their own democracy. Unreal.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Was that a good deal? I say to the Minister of Development

and Rural Renewal: When he asked Canada to join us, was that a good deal? So,

where would you be? You would be back with Joey and the boys.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Where would I be?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, where?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, misconception. That is what they wanted you to believe,

I say to you. In rural Newfoundland, according to what was going on this weekend

- if you were listening this weekend - some communities in rural Newfoundland

did not even know the depression was on.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. TULK: They have blinkers on (inaudible), 20-20 hindsight (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, right.

With respect to health - I will get back to health - $135 million a year cut

from the Liberal cousins in Ottawa, in CHST, giving us back $11 million.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Walsh): The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of

order.

MR. TULK: I cannot believe that a member would sit in this Legislature

and stand up and say that he would have been part of the Commission of

Government, that he would have been part of that crew that said we should not

join Confederation. Now, we know there is one here. We know there is one there

from Placentia & St. Mary's, and I suspect that he was a closet

anti-Confederate. Now I know. He has finally gotten up and said it. There are

two anti-Confederates still left in this Legislature.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair appreciates the comments but there is no point of

order.

MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to use this opportunity just to see if I clearly understood what the

hon. member said in his remarks. Did he say that most people in Newfoundland and

Labrador didn't know that we had a depression? Is that what you said, that

most people living in Newfoundland and Labrador didn't know we had a

depression? You actually said that? If you did, then I have to question your

stability.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I have to address those two points. For the

Government House Leader's information, I wasn't even born until 1951. He was

the one who said that I would be an anti-Confederate. He was the one who said

that. I didn't say that.

With respect to the Minister of Fisheries' comment: yes, I will have to

explain it twice for him. He needs things said to him two and three times for it

to sink in and for him to be able to comprehend it. What I said was that there

were some communities in Newfoundland - some - that did not feel that the

depression was on. He should pay attention and not get all excited and

exercised.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You didn't hear what I said?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible). I never do that.

MR. J. BYRNE: I said to you that I wasn't born in the days of

pre-Confederation. I was born in 1951. In the meantime, I have read a lot about

it, I can guarantee you that, leading up to it, and I know they were some very

interesting times. As a matter of fact - I shouldn't even admit this - my

parents loved Joey. They loved Joey until I ran in politics and they saw the

light. They saw the light when I ran, and they marked a big X for Jack, no

problem there.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Jack attack.

MR. J. BYRNE: I haven't gotten into a Jack attack yet but I will build

up to it maybe. It depends on how it is going by 4:45 or 5:00. We will see,

alright. I have to save my voice.

Back to the health care, I want to talk about that $135 million a year again.

We have this administration taking $43.7 million -

MR. TULK: I will tell you one thing, Jack. It is a lot better to listen

to you (inaudible) over there.

MR. J. BYRNE: You are going to be hearing a lot less. I have so many

notes with me, really, I am telling you.

They are taking $43.7 million, a one-shot fix this year in health care. If

you talk to the Member for Ferryland, the health critic, who knows more about

health than anyone else in this Province - especially people sitting in this

House, I can guarantee you that - if you talk to him and get the facts and

figures, you will know that the amount of money they are saying they are putting

into health care, they are not putting in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: One hundred and thirty-six million, but $57 million of that

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: He is over in the corner.

Fifty-seven million is over three years and it is for capital works, capital

expenditures, construction and what have you. Let's go back to Trans City. We

have hospitals constructed, and some are partially occupied. I think, Loyola,

some are not even occupied.

MR. SULLIVAN: What is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Trans City, the hospitals.

MR. SULLIVAN: There are ten empty beds in the St. Lawrence one. Almost

half the beds in Burgeo are not utilized.

MR. J. BYRNE: One hospital with ten beds not occupied.

MR. SULLIVAN: Out of forty.

MR. J. BYRNE: Out of forty.

MR. SULLIVAN: In the long-term care facility in St. Lawrence, they have

only opened, over the last several years, thirty out of forty beds.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is shocking, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point or order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) Member for Ferryland, the Opposition House Leader,

from interrupting his colleague down there and let him make his speech. It is

terrible what he is doing to him.

MR. SULLIVAN: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point or order, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Cape St. Francis asked

questions and he wanted some input, didn't he? I am just obliging him. If the

Government House Leader keeps standing up, we are going to give that critic a

long break and he is going to want to speak for weeks on this Budget.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order but the Chair has to agree that he is enjoying the

comments of the Member for Cape St. Francis and probably would like to hear the

comments that he has, uninterrupted.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad and I am delighted that you are enjoying my comments; but I hope

that not only are you enjoying them, but that members on the other side of the

House are also learning from my comments.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) making a note of everything you are saying, and it

will be given to every minister of the Crown..

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Yes, I did ask the Member for Ferryland. Every now and then I will refer to

him when I am speaking about health care because, as I said, the new Minister of

Health and the previous Minister of Health and the previous, previous Minister

of Health know nothing compared to that man, and the facts and figures.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack, you are not up again?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I am, I say to you. I have a lot to say, there is no

doubt about that, and I am going to say it. I have been looking forward to this.

AN HON. MEMBER: There is no one going to stop you, Jack, is there? They

may slow you down (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: There is only going to be one thing stop me before I say

what I have to say, and that is this throat. If that gives out -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I am handling it. I already have this arranged with the

Pages, to take care of this.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, no problem.

With all of these points of order on this side of the House, as I said, I

have unlimited time and kind of appreciate these points of order because it

gives me a break, there is no doubt about that, so go for it, but I will get my

points out. You may deflect me, you may deter me for a little period of time,

but I will get my points out.

With respect to health care again, and how much money actually is being spent

this year, they are saying they are putting $136 million in health care but in

actual fact - it would lead people to believe that it is this year, but that is

over a three year period. Fifty-seven million of that is not going to help Joe

Blow or Tommy Toe or whomever, to speed them up, to speed up the long waiting

lines.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I was just pointing all over the place. That won't do

anything to shorten up the waiting lines for heart surgery, or anything like

that. They are talking about $57 million over three years for hospitals,

construction and what have you. I hope that in due course this government will

learn from the mistakes of Trans City.

The new Minister of Health is there now, and he was there -

AN HON. MEMBER: What did you learn (inaudible)? That (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, there was no mistake all right. What did the court

decide? How much extra are you going to have to pay out? It was criminal. That

is what it was and now I have the court case to back me up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: No, he didn't say that. He said what you said - the

report (inaudible) was (inaudible), was it?

MR. J. BYRNE: What?

MR. SULLIVAN: What they did was criminal. You did not say they were

criminals, did you?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, the report. No, I am talking about the court cases.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: I will get it. Do you want me to read from the report?

AN HON. MEMBER: What report?

MR. J. BYRNE: The court decision.

Mr. Speaker, I told you I was prepared. There is a degree of accuracy. I

would say there is more than a degree; there is a good degree of accuracy.

Next, $1.2 billion allocated to operate the health care system in 2000. Now

here is a factor that I want to talk about. This Administration is talking about

how it is putting more into health care now than it was putting into health care

two or three years ago. If you look at the Budget, under health care, if you

look at the Estimates - I have it here - if you look at the bottom line, yes, in

fact, there may be a few more bucks there on the bottom line, but what they do

not say to the public is that that department has taken in other

responsibilities over the past few years. Trickery.

MR. TULK: Jack, don't point that at me (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Trickery. All you have to pray is that I do not point that

at you. You better pray that I don't point that at you.

MR. TULK: I don't have to pray for that. I know you are too much a

gentleman for that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know.

Again, I am going to defer and just get side commnets from the health critic.

We have the Department of Health taking -

MR. GRIMES: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I am listening very intently to the words being spoken by the Opposition

finance critic. I know he, like others on that side of the House, want to be

accurate in their statements. In fact, the estimates that we compared for the

new Department of Health and Community Services are compared to the old

Department of Health plus the services that were moved over from the Department

of Human Resources and Employment. The base budget for the old Department of

Health was $903 million. The base budget that we are comparing to is $998

million because $95 million worth of services were moved over from another

department and are accounted for in every document presented by the government.

I know he wants to acknowledge that instead of suggesting what he just did, in

error, that we are comparing something different. I know he wants to tell the

truth.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair does not recognize the comment as a point of order

but certainly a point of clarification.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, I say to the Minister of Health, for the break.

With respect to figures, I know what this government has been doing over the

years. I know what the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal tried to do

today. I know what the Minister of Health is trying to do. In actual fact, what

I am saying here is that the new department is taking responsibilities from

Human Resources with respect to child protection and youth and what have you, so

they are not putting more money in health. As a matter of fact, they are putting

in a few bucks to try and make it look good. As I said, robbing Peter to pay

Paul and all these kinds of things. What they are not doing is putting in nearly

enough money for health care.

This is another point I will make. I remember our leader and the critic for

health standing in this House of Assembly asking questions to the previous

minister. The word that was thrown back at us all the time is fearmongering.

What do we see lately when we had the new Minister of Health take over? We saw a

new tactic from him and the Premier. All of a sudden we are in a crisis in

health care in this Province. It took us three years to sink that into the

skulls of the members on that side of the House. Finally, we see the Premier of

the Province, because it is politically expedient, go up along and now he is

going to be Captain Canada' for health care? A man who sat around the

Cabinet table when there was $125 million cut from Ottawa, who was a member of

Prime Minister Chrtien's Cabinet -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) your speech.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will get that for you in three or four weeks' time when

we have the Hansard ready.

MR. TULK: I got this one.

MR. J. BYRNE: When I am finished, in a couple of weeks' time, and they

have time in Hansard to type it and print it, we will get you a copy of it.

We saw the Premier of this Province going up along. When the federal Budget

was coming down he was up in Ottawa trying to get his picture on television, up

along with the national television stations, the stations up along in the

mainland. He is trying to say now that he is going to be Captain Canada'

for health care when he was the one who approved it, condoned it, said nothing

about it and said that we were fearmongering. Then he got a new minister, the

spin doctor himself, because the previous minister was getting too much of a

hard time from our critic and figured that the new minister could spin it back.

I will say to the present Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, the

former Minister of Health, that I hope in her new portfolio she enjoys it

because she is a different woman in this House of Assembly. She is a different

woman. She used to come in here and sit down when she was Minister of Health and

she would not get up and mingle around, go around or anything like that. Now she

is up going around all over the place when the House is in, which is good to

see.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Am I mingling with you crowd?

MR. J. BYRNE: I never said you were mingling with me. I never said that.

Listen to what I am saying. Pay attention. All I ask is pay attention. You are

mingling around. You were over looking at the Mace the other day and you were

having that explained to you. You were up talking to your colleagues on the

other side of the House. It is good to see. I will only suggest one thing to the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The previous Minister of Municipal

and Provincial Affairs, I have to say, I will give him credit, I found him to be

pretty good to deal with with respect to municipal issues. I only hope that the

present minister will be half as -

MR. SULLIVAN: So now you are his critic again.

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm his critic again, yes. That is it. We all have our

crosses to bear, I say to the Member for Ferryland.

I am going to get back to the issue with respect to the Premier now trying to

be Captain Canada.' I was watching a show, by the way, last week on

television. It was a special done by CBC and Here and Now , I think, with

respect to the Premier and his political ambitions up along.

MR. TULK: What are they?

MR. J. BYRNE: What are they? Sure, everyone knows what they are. He would

love to be Prime Minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible). Would you support him?

MR. J. BYRNE: Would I? Would I support him for Prime Minister? I really

don't support him being Premier of the Province.

MR. TULK: Would you support him in the leadership of the Liberal Party of

Canada?

MR. J. BYRNE: The present?

MR. TULK: I would not expect you to vote for him in an election

(inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Just as a general statement, I say to the Government House

Leader, I would not be opposed to a Newfoundlander being prime minister of the

country.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I'll go no further than that, okay, but that doesn't

mean -

MR. TULK: I would have voted for John Crosbie (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I would, too. Oh yes, I would have preferred him over the

present premier though.

Back to the health care and what is going on -

AN HON. MEMBER: Is this your maiden speech, Jack?

MR. J. BYRNE: My maiden speech? Where have you been the past four years?

What I told you was that I had to respond to the Budget speech again. Do I have

to explain it to you three or four times like I had to for the Minister of

Fisheries?

Anyway, Mr. Speaker -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Look, I am up an hour, Mr. Speaker, and I only got to the

first page so far of that. I have this to go through yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I have been looking forward to this, I will tell you that,

now.

Here it is: The cumulative increase in the health care budget over the past

five years is $516 million. Mr. Speaker, when we know that Ottawa has cut $125

million over the past few years, which works out to be about $500 million, that

means there has been an increase of $1 billion from the Province for health

care. Not likely.

Let me see here. The total value committed by the government for capital

spending for new health facilities, renovations of existing facilities and

equipment is $433.5 million. That sounds like a lot of money to me. I do not

know where they are getting it. It said: In this Budget alone $135.8 million in

new spending is committed by this government to health care in the Province.

That is what I was talking about earlier, $135.8 million. You would think that

$135.8 million is in this year. Not so, not by any stretch of the imagination.

No. It is $40-some million and they are getting that from Ottawa.

We had the person from St. John's Health Care Corporation on, I think Mr.

Peddle his name was, and he said, before the Budget came down: If we receive

$100 million we would not waste one penny of it. We need every cent of it, and

they are talking about putting in $30-some million? It is not even going to

address the deficit of the health care in this Province.

I have to say I truly hope that the Premier, the Minister of Finance and the

Minister of Health - by the way, the Minister of Health said they were taking a

gamble on that $43.7 million - but I do hope with all my heart, and sincerely,

that they are successful in negotiating with the Prime Minister and Paul Martin,

or whoever it is, to get more money for health care in this Province because we

are in desperate need.

I have an individual who phoned me the other day who is waiting for an MRI,

who has a growth on her back. She is very concerned, and they have to wait until

September for an MRI. September! The doctor marked urgent on it so what do you

need to get in to have an MRI? Last fall, I had an individual in his seventies

contact me, from down in the middle of my district. He had to have an MRI done

and it was delayed. This was back in, I think it was, October, and they were

going to have to wait until January or February. Anyway, between the jigs and

the reels, they got in in the fall. He had a tumor and it was operated on within

forty-eight hours. Just imagine if that individual had to wait for five or six

months. That is how urgent it was and how serious it was.

We have health care, and we have a new tactic by this Administration

basically trying to twist it back on us on this side of the House all the time.

You know, trying to say that we are confused, and that one person is saying we

are not spending enough and someone else is saying we are spending too much, and

that someone else is saying we have a deficit more than what they are predicting

and what have you. I will get into that in due course, but the amount of money

that this Administration is wasting and has wasted and will continue to waste

unless something is done about it is incredible.

First, the court cases. I have them all listed there. I will get into the

details of them, but I am only trying to make some general comments today to get

me started on the Budget speech. As I said, we have many millions of dollars

being wasted by this Administration. It is very serious, and until this Liberal

government decides to start taking responsibility for their actions and still

trying to put it back to ten years ago, eleven years ago, fifteen years ago,

twenty years ago, that is when we might start getting somewhere. Or, by the way,

in another eighteen months down the road we will be into another election, I

suppose.

AN HON. MEMBER: How long?

MR. J. BYRNE: Another eighteen months.

AN HON. MEMBER: Provincial election?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, because let's look at it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, maybe. I will say maybe. I came here in 1993, and up

to February 1999, in less than six years, we had three elections. So what does

that tell you?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) six elections in a matter of ten years.

MR. J. BYRNE: I pity you.

MR. TULK: Three of those - four of those - involved that crowd over.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, times change. So, in actual fact, what the Government

House Leader is saying is that two wrongs make a right.

MR. TULK: No, I didn't say (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, that is the impression you gave, that two wrongs make a

right.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right?

Here we have equipment under health care, for the good of our people. I know

what would be good for the good of our people, if we could defeat you guys.

Equipment, $54 million committed over three years for new and improved health

care technologies. This is desperately needed, I can't knock it, and it is

great to see, but again, over three years. That leaves $18 million a year for

technologies.

When you look at the cost of equipment for health care, you take MRIs, CAT

scans, all kinds of X-Ray equipment, all of these are fairly expensive stuff.

When you have a hospital being constructed in there, the Janeway, and all new

equipment that is going to have to go in there... As a matter of fact, I was

speaking to some of the people who work at the Janeway not long ago, and they

have old equipment. It was on the agenda to give them new equipment, but it is

quite likely off the table now.

I remember when the Janeway was first announced, and it was going to $60

million. It went to $80 million, then to $100 million, then to $120 million.

That was a year-and-a-half ago when the PAC did a public hearing on the St. John's

Health Care Corporation, and that did not include equipment.

Again, I remember three years ago in this House of Assembly, the Member for

Ferryland questioning where it was going to go, how much it was going to cost.

It was fearmongering, not accurate, or whatever the case might be. We were right

again.

It says here: New equipment will be purchased for all regions of the

Province.

One thing, though, I would admit to with respect to the Budget, it was good

to see those two new dialysis machines in two new locations -

MR. SULLIVAN: Two new locations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Out in Clarenville there was one, wasn't it?

MR. SULLIVAN: In Clarenville and St. Anthony.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is great to see that the people will have access to

those dialysis machines in those regions, in those areas.

I have a friend who is on dialysis frequently. It is hard enough doing it,

let alone having to travel probably two or three times a weeks to have that

service. I will give credit there, there is no doubt about that.

Health care professionals; we say: we have $600,000 to provide incentives to

graduating nurses who commit to work in the Province.

Now, this was supposed to be a great step forward. It was a step forward,

there is no doubt about that, $600,000 to provide incentives to graduating

nurses who commit to work in the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: See, you have to listen to what I am saying. I have to

repeat it again. I am saying that this is supposed to be a great step forward. I

said that it is a step forward, but not a great step forward. Do you agree with

that?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes. What we would have done was, we would have started

listening to the people of the Province years ago when they started pointing out

the problems, I say to the Government House Leader.

We have $2.1 million budgeted for new salaried physicians in priority areas.

From what I understand, I think the federal government is talking about taxing

these doctors who do locums and what have you. That is a threat upon health care

itself, and the services available to the people in rural Newfoundland and

Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack, I was out to a meeting. Could you repeat what you

have already said?

MR. J. BYRNE: Start again?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, start again. Could you start again? The Minister of

Forestry and I missed all of that. Could you repeat it all?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am only on the second page of this.

Under High Priority Programs, $6.2 million is allocated to enhance the

cardiac surgery program. From what I understand, that is not going to be nearly

enough to do what needs to be done. I know we were supposed to be sending so

many people out of the Province for heart surgery, and that was supposed to

basically alleviate or shorten the lineups, but it hasn't. We know, for some

reason or other, I think the rate of heart surgery is increasing all the time,

the required heart surgeries. I don't know if it is because of the diet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Go on out of the House if you don't want to listen to me,

I say to the Minister of Fisheries.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the so-called President of Treasury Board - the

so-called President, because whenever you are asked a question in the House

either the Minister of Finance has to go down and tell you the answer or the

Premier has to give you some direction as to what to say.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: It is true. Don't talk about me being interesting or not

interesting, I say to the President of Treasury Board. Don't be sarcastic with

me.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That is not like you, Jack, getting on with (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If I thought it was coming from the heart, I would say I

was sorry. Is it coming from the heart?

MR. TULK: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, see, there you go.

MS THISTLE: You haven't asked me a question yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not true, I say to the President of Treasury Board.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I have asked you questions and I didn't get an answer so

there is no point in asking.

They have $570,000 for two new community-based dialysis programs in

Clarenville and St. Anthony. I have addressed that. Good move, I say to the

Minister of Finance.

There is $3.3 million in increased funding to improve the road ambulance

program.

With respect to the road ambulance program, in rural Newfoundland we have

seen lineups with ambulances coming up here trying to get more money. You have

$3.3 million allocated, and I think they were expecting something like double

that or triple it. I don't know how happy they will be, and I don't know how

long this amount of money will last to alleviate the problems with respect to

the ambulance services in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

What we did see over the past few years by this administration - in the years

that they said there were no new taxes - were charges for ambulances from the

Health Science Complex. Seventy-five dollars a trip, I think it was, one way. If

someone came in on a given day to the Health Science Complex they had to pay

$75. Take an example, someone from Torbay or Pouch