Manitoba Hansard — 93 ISSN 542 (Sitting 109A, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-109a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-80411 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL XLII No. 109A • 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, JULY 26,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Consti tuencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCH ARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leo nard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHEL SON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conr ad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYl YCIA- LEIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virde n Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charl eswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mo untain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendr ye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmer e Rupertsland The Maples PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

5896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, July 26,1993 The 1-louse met at 1 :30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): I wish to inform the HousE� of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker and, !therefore , in accordance with the statutes, would call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair .. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Madstm Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the HousE� to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS there is a very serious solvent abuse probletm in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS according to the RCMP over 10 0 crime:s in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHER EAS there are no faci lities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the pro vincial government failed to proclaim the private mem ber's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize mino rs buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northetrn Manitoba; and WHER EAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, suppc•rted by medical of ficials, police and the area Memb er of Par liamen t, have proposed a pilo t trea tmen t project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS suc cessi ve federal Min isters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and WHERE AS the Manitoba pro vincial gove rnment has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREF ORE your petitione rs humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the estab lishmen t of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. *** Madam Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Mr. Ashton). It complie s with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the state of Highway 391 is bec oming increasingly unsafe ; and WHERE AS due to the poor condition of the road there have been nume rous acci dents; and WHERE AS the condition of the road between Thom pson and Nelson House is not only making travel dangerous but costly due to frequent damage to vehicles; and WHERE AS this road is of vital importance to reside nts who must use the roa d.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to reques t that the gove rnmen t of Manitoba consider reviewing the state of Highway 391 with a view towards improving the condition and safety of the road. * (1 335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Bob Rose (Chai rperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amend ments) : Madam Deput y Speaker, I beg to present the Twelfth and Thirteenth Reports of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Comm ittee on Law Amen dmen ts presents the following as its Twelfth Report.

5897 LE GISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 26, 1993 Your comm ittee met on Thursday, July 22, 19 93, at 9 a.m. in Room 254 and 7 p.m . in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 35- The Fisheries Amendm ent Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia peche Pascali Bighe tty - Assem bly of Manit oba Chi efs Biii 47-The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia location a usage d'habitation Michel Mig nault and Alan Borger Jr. - Professional Prop erty Managers' Associati on Bob Hanson and Peter H. Warkentine - The Apartment Investors Association of Manitoba Gail Jarema - Private Citizen Bill 49-- The

Summary Convictions Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les poursu ites

sommaires et apportant des modifications correlatives a une autre loi John Ryan - Private Citizen Ellen Olfert and Rene Jamieson - Winnipeg Harvest Inc. Rick Penner - Habitat Re-store Bill 52- The Manitoba Foundation Act;

Loi sur Ia Fondat ion du Manitoba Dan Kraayeveld and David Cohen - Winnipeg Foundation and Jewish Found ation of Manitoba Your comm ittee has considered: Bill 35-The Fisheries Amendm ent Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia peche and ha s agreed to report the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT the proposed

section 33, as set out in

section 4 of the Bill, be amended (

a) in subsection (1 ), by adding in the part prece ding claus e (a), "an d af ter suc h co nsultations with fishermen affected as the Lieutenant Governor in Council consider s appropria te" after "commer cial purposes"; and (

b) by adding the following afte r su bsection (2): Transfer of Individual quota entitlements 33(3) A regulation made under subsection (1 ) shall provide that a fisherman is not entitled to transfe r or dispose of his or her individual quo ta entitlement in respect of an area in Northern Manitoba as defined in The Northern Affairs Act unless the fisherman has publicly offered the individual quota entitlement to other persons who hold, or who are eligible to hold, an individual quo ta entitlement in that area.

Transitional 33(4) A fisherman who becomes the first holder of an in dividual qu ota en tit lemen t un der the regu lations made under subsection (1) shall not be entitled to transfer or dispose of that individual quo ta entitlement until one year after the day he or she first becomes the holder of that entitlement. Your comm ittee has also considered: Bill 4 7- The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (2) ; Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia location a usage d'habitation and has agreed to re port the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT

section 7 of the Bill be renu mber ed as subsection 7(1) and the following be added after subsection 7(1): 7(2) Subsection 25(3) is amended by striking out "subsection (1 )" and substituting "subsection (1 ) or (2)". MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 18 3.1 , as set out in

section 58 of the Bill, be amended by striking out "making an advance" and substituting "an advance is made". Your comm ittee has also considered: Bill 49-- The

Summary Convictions Amendment and Consequential Amendmen ts Act ; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les poursui tes somm aires et apportant des modifications correlatives a une autre loi and has agreed to repor t the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered: Bill 52- The Manitoba Foundation Act;

Loi sur Ia Fondation du Manitoba and has agreed to repor t the same with the following amendment: MOTION:

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5898 THAT su bsection 8(3) be struck out and the following substituted: OthE•r trustees 8(3) Subje ct to su bsection (2), when the first institution is desig nated by regulation in a category of institution that represen ts (

a) all educational institutions; (

b) all hospital institutions; or (

c) all museum institutions ; thE' board shall include two trustees in respect of that category of institution, appoin ted by the Lieut enant Governor in Council from a list of nominees subm itted by each cate gory of institution set out in clauses (

a) to (c). All of which is respectfu lly submitted. *** Mr. Clerk: You r Stand ing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts presen ts the following as it s Thirtl�enth Report. Your comm ittee met on Monday, July 19 at 9 a.m., Tuesday, July 20 at 9 a.m., Wednesday, July 21 at 9 a.m. and 7 p.m., Thursday, July 22 at 9 a.m . in Room 254 and Thursday, July 22, 19 93, at 7 p.m . in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider bills referred. Your comm ittee heard represen tation bn bills as follows: Bill 24 - The Taxicab Amen dmen t and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les taxis et apport ant des modifica tions correlatives a d'autres lois .lohn Mann - Private Citizen Randy Delorme - Private Citizen .lasbir Chahal - Manitoba Taxicab Association Martin Boroditsky - Private Citizen Balwant Singh - Private Citizen Akihola Abiodun - Private Citizen Mohinder Gundhu - Private Citizen Momsuru Tijami - Private Citizen C. Amado - Private Citizen Olufemi llelaboye - Private Citizen Gurdev Singh - Private Citizen Baljinder Bhumber - Private Citizen Vijay Kaushal - Private Citizen Fl. Henry - Private Citizen M.

Akram Rana - Private Citizen Neil Olukoya - Private Citizen Reg Kambo - Private Citizen Clement K. Betiku - Private Citizen Dan Nadoryk - Private Citizen Theodore D. Johnston - Private Citizen Ed Zurawzuk - Private Citizen Your comm ittee has cons idered: Bill 24- The Taxicab Amendmen t and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les taxis et apportant des modifica tions correlatives a d'autres lois and has agreed to repor t the same with the following amendmen ts: MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 4(1 ), as set out in subsection 5(1 ) of the Bill, be amended by striking out "directly or indirectly". MOTION: THAT subsection 5(2) of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: 5(2) Subsection 4(2) is repealed and the following is substituted : Penalty 4(2) Any person who contrave nes this

section is guilty of an offe nce and is liable on

summary conviction (

a) for the first offe nce , to a fine of not less than $1 00. and not more than $500.; and (

b) for a subsequen t offence, to a fine of not less than $250. and not more than $1 ,000. MOTION: THAT subsection 1 0(2) of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: 1 0(2) Su bsection 11 (3) is repealed and the following is substituted: Penalty 11(3) Any person who drives a taxicab without first obtaining the licence referred to in subsection (1) is guilty of an offe nce and is liable on

summary con viction (

a) for the first offe nce, to a fine of not less than $50. and not more than $250.; and (

b) for a subsequen t offence, to a fine of not less than $1 00. and not more than $500.

5899 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 MOTION; THATthe proposed clause 14 (1 .2)(c) , as set out in

section 12 of the Bill, be amend ed by striking out "left in cus tody" and substituting "if the holder cannot be found, left in the custody". MOTION; THAT the proposed subsection 14 (1 .3), as set out in

section 12 of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted : When notice Is given 14(1.3) A notice is deemed to be given (

a) on the third day after the date of mailing if se nt by registered mail as provided under clause (1 .2 )(b); or (

b) on the day when it is left in the custody of an adult person as provided under clause (1 .2 )(c); unless the holder of the licence or permit to whom it was addressed establishes that he or she, acting in good faith, did not receive the notice until a later date, through absence, accident, illness or other cause beyond his or her control. MOTION; THATthe proposed clause 14 (1 .8)(c), as set out in

section 12 of the Bill, be amended by adding "if the holder canno t be fou nd," before "left in the custody". MOTION; THAT the proposed subsection 19 (3), as set out in subsection 17(3) of the Bill, be amended by striking out "Every" and substituting "Subject to subsection 14 (1 .8), every".

MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 1 9( 6), as set out in subsection 17(4) of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted: Completion of proceeding 19(6) Where a quorum exi sts at the commence ment of a meeting of or hearing or other proceeding before the board, and thereafter a member thereo f dies, resigns or for any reason becomes incapable of acting, the remaining members may compl ete the mee ting, hea ring or pro ceeding or any adjournment thereof; and any decision with respect to that meeting, hearing or proceeding made by a majo rity of the remainin g mem bers shall be deemed to be a decision of the board as if a quorum had been present.

MOTION; THAT

Section 19 of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: 19

Section 21 is repealed and the following is substituted: Penalty for non-p ayment of fares 21{1) Any person who engages a taxicab that is licensed under this Act and who, on demand being made at the termination of the trip, fails to pay the proper fare to the driver or owner of the taxicab, is guilty of an of fe nce and is liable on

summary conviction (

a) for the first off ence, to a fine of not more than $250.; and (

b) for a subsequent offence, to a fine of not more than $500. Payment of fares and costs 21

(2) When a court or justice convicts a person of an offence under subse ction (1), in addition to and at the time of imposing any fine, the court or justice (

a) shall order the person to pay the proper fare to the driver or owner of the taxicab if it has not been paid; and (

b) may assess costs against the person payable to the driver or owner of the taxicab. Order flied In court 21

(3) The driver or owner of the taxicab may file in the Court of Queen's Bench of Manitoba a certified copy of an order made under subsection (2) and, on being filed, the order may be enforced in the same manner as a judgment of that Court. MOTION: THAT

section 21 of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: Coming Into force 21

(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. Royal Assent 21(2)

Section 19 comes into force on the day this Act receives royal assent. MOTION: THAT the French version of the title of the Bill be ame nded by stri king out "a d'autres lois" and substituting •a une autre loi". MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to change all

section numb ers and inte rnal refe rences

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5900 nece :ssary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. All of which is respectfu lly submitted. Mr. l:tose: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Portag e Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister}, that the rEtports of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Harry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resc,urces) : Madam Dep uty Speaker, I have a brief :statement for the House. Manitob a Water Resources Branch advises that the flash-flood watch issued for the Red River Valley last night is still in effect.

Most streams are still rising from the weekend downpours. Heavy runoff is taking place, and many smaller streams are already near bankfullevels. One of the areas hardest hit is along the Red River from Morris to Lake Winnipeg. The western bou ndary is from Poplar Point to Morden and the eastern boun dary from St. Malo to Dugald. Streams in this area may experience overbank flows today or tom orrow resulting in some floodi ng of farmlands. In the Winnipeg area, Sturgeon Creek may spill over Ness Ave nue and Woodhaven Street during the next 48 hours, but the overtopping should be quite shallow.

The Red River continues to rise due to heavy runoff in the United States and the additional runoff from Manitoba tributaries. At Ste. Agathe, the river rose 3.5 feet in the last 24 hours. In the city of Winnipeg, low-level walkways at The Forks are now 1flooded. The river is expected to rise another 4 feelt to 5 feet in the Winnipeg area before it crests around August 8, 19 93. Flows on the Assiniboine River will be remaining near normal, but levels in the city area will be increasing due to the rise of the Red l=!iver.

Th1:t Red River Floodway is ready for operation and i!s designed to come into service at discharges over 30,000 cubic feet per second. Currently, the Red Hiver flow is near 20,000 cubic feet per second at St. Norbert. Th19 flash-flood watch will likely continue until Tuesday. More specific forecasts for the Red River will be issued later today or early Tuesday. The Wate r Resources Branch will continue to monitor the situation and prov ide updated information as conditions change. Thank you. Mr.

Gar y Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for his state ment and thank his staff who I am sure are working 24 hour s around the clock on this very, very urgent situation in the pro vince of Manitoba. We are almost in a situation of very different weather patte rns in very different regions of the pro vince. Northern Manitoba is experiencing very sunny and warm tem peratures in relative terms, and southern Manitoba is experiencing quite mo ist and wet tem perature patte rns.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that many citizens of Winnipeg and other communities that are experiencing the overflow are very concerned about the imp act on their houses and their dwellings. We would urge the government to show as much due diligence, if po ssible, to any decisions they can make that will aid and abet in flooding in base me nts and other matters. I know that with the city of Winnipeg and other communi ties, it is really a situation where the sewer system and the basin drainage system are not able to handle all the water.

If there is anything the Dep artment of Natural Resources can do in any way, shape or form , dealing with the decisions they have at their disposal, I know that the citizens affected directly would be very thankful. I know upstream from Winnip eg there are a number of other concerns by people outside of the floodway about potential flooding and damage.

We look forwar d to the forecas t from the gove rnment. • (1 340) We recognize that not all members affected in the basin are covered by the floodway, and we would encour age again the mini ste r to take whatever means at their department's disposal with the Department of Highways and the department of emer gency measu res to deal with people outside of the floodway district. We hope this recent rain and moisture is not going to have a long- term impact on the crops in Manitoba.

We hope the crops are able to survive this period of time, and producers in Manitoba will be able to overcome a pretty tough July in terms of the water levels in some growing areas of the pro vince.

5901 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 I thank the minister for his statement. We in the opposition look fo rward to raising our concerns directly to him, and of course in times of em ergency we will work with him and his gove rnment in the most co-ope rative way we can on behalf of the citizens affected by this water. Thank you. Mr.

Paul Edwards (Lea der of the Second Opposition) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I, too, want to thank the minister for coming forward today in a very timely way with this information, which of course is important for members to know but, more importantl y, impo rtant for the citizens of this province to know who are going to be affected by these very heavy rains. Madam Deputy Speaker, I simply wantto bring to the minister's atte ntion that this morning in my offi ce, and in some of the other members' I am sure, there were a lot of phone calls.

Those phone calls were coming because other em ergency lines set up through the city and around the province were not able to be accessed simply because of the volume.

I wonder if the mi nister would take under advisement anything he could do working with the minister responsibl e for emer gency measures to supplemen t the information that people have access to, because of course there are concerns which are arising around the province from people who have never experienced the type of flooding they are experiencing in their homes, and they are concerned about the safety and what they should do and what they should not do. I just wanted to bring that to the minister's attention as someth ing that maybe could be done in dissemi nating information to bring a sense of calm.

I think most people are able to deal with this, but in particular I think seniors and others who are in their homes are going to need all the assistance that we can give to under stand what they should do and what they can and cannot do to alleviate the situation. As well, I of course am sure that the minister is in consu ltation with his cou nter

part in cabinet the minister responsible for em ergency measures to determine what desi gnation should be given to this, what provisions can be made available to people and I am sure that m ay flow from an assessment of what kind of damage has occurred, because I think early indications are that it is extensive not just in the city, but obviousl y in the entire Red River Valley area. There are extensive damages and likely going to be more to co me.

I would appreci ate further updates from the minister on a per sonal level, or in the House preferably, as to what might be done at a pro vincial level to buttress the dissemi nation of information and the emergency lines which are available, and, secondly, to det ermine what designation might be given to this very unfortuna te level of water coming in this short time span, so we can ensure that we access whatever additional powers are necessary for the gove rnment to deal with it and perhaps even what relief fu nding the re may be, if any, for individuals who have been so seriously affected by this unpredictable and very serious event.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do want to thank the minister again for coming forward. I would like to ask him to maintain contact and come forward on an ongoing basis with information as it comes to his attention and also to work with the City of Winnipeg and the rural municipalities in doing whatever they can to disse minate inform ation and give whatever help they can to the people who are unfortunate enough to be caught up in this. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speake r. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Social Assistance Reform Education Programs Mr.

Gar y Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Premier. We know that governments make mistakes. One of the gr ea test mis takes we feel this government has made is the cutback on stude nt social allowances.

After the govern ment stated in its Speech from the Thron e in Nove mber of 19 92 that education is the key to unlock opportu nities for our economic growth and prosperity in terms of our future, the gove rnment then went and cut student social allowances which was acknowledged by a number of people to be a good way to get people educ ation and training and get them off the dependency cycle. After they have done that, they have then annou nced they are going to reform the welfare system.

I would like to ask the Premier: Will this reform of the social assistance program in Manitoba not include some program to get people education and training and why, therefore, would he cut student

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5902 social allowances which pro vides that function now in the provincial government? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam Deputy SpEtake r, in all likelihood, it will, and the reason is we can perhaps make more ef ficient and more effe,ctive use of the dollars in being able to address tho1�e needs. * (1 345) Student Social Allowances Program Cost Analysis Mr.

Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): The go vernment, after 16 questions from this side on the question of student social allowances, has not yet tabled any cos t-be nefit stud y, any cost ef fE!ctiv eness study, of the decision and the rationale to cut student social allowances. The Conference Board of Canada, Madam Deputy Speaker, is stating that for every person who is unable to com plete education or receive training, it costs Canada, including the prov inces, some $29,000 over their lifetime.

Madam Deputy Speaker, if you look at the over 1 ,000 people who are being cut off student social allowances, that works out to some $32 million for pec•ple cut off in the province of Manitoba from student social allowances, from get ti ng their education and training programs in this pro vince.

I would like to ask the Premier: What is their calc:ulation of the long-term costs for students cut off from student socia l allowances, the long-term cost to Manitoba, to C anada, for people who are unable to get edu catio n and training and unable to get the same kind of opportunities to get out of de pendency and into the workforce and into camers in this provi nce ? Ho1n. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam De puty SpE! aker, as we hav e discu ssed before , the memb er ke ep s assu ming there are no other alternatives for these peop le.

In the cour se of the deba te , we ha ve had evidence put forward that some of these people utili;�e the program merely as a means of being able to move away from their homes in order to do that. Others quit jobs in ord er to go onto the progr am, Madam De puty Speaker, so the fact of the matter is there has been a whole host of different-because of the lack of criteria for utilization, we believe there will be more effective and more effi cient ways of prov iding this kind of support for the students who might require it. Alternatives Mr.

Gar y Doer {Leader of the Opposi tion): Madam Deputy Speaker, how can this Premier sit in this House and cut back stu dent social allowances, cut back students in mid-course from education and training, admit that education and training is important, admit that the words in the Speech from the Throne about it being the key for future economic opportunity are valid, and at the same time not provide the alternatives in the budget they tabled in this Chamber, not provide the alternatives for those 1 , 1 00 students, not provide the alternatives to those peo ple looking at those kinds of education and training progr ams?

Why did the government no t have that alternative in place for those students, so we do not have people cut off in mid-term and cut away from careers in mid-term as th is gover nment has callously done over the last couple of months in their budget delibe ration? Hon. Gar y Fllmon {Premier): There is no suggestion that people are cut away from careers, Madam Deputy Speake r. The fact of the matter is these people are involved in various levels and various prog rams of education which may or may not lead to a career.

The fact of the matter is we have indicated that the matters will be addressed in a type of program arrangement we believe will be more effective and more efficient use of public tax dollars. * (1 350) Red River Community College Waiting Lists Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Madam Deputy Speaker, if any Manitoban were to call Red River Communi ty College today , after five years of Tory gov ernmen t, they would find there is only one cour se remaining open to them , and that is the Child Care Challenge Progra m. They would find that more than 15 courses have been either reduced or eliminated at the college.

They will find that overall student enrollment is less now than it was five years ago. They will find that every existing program has a waiting list of at least one year, if not two years.

5903 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 I want to ask the Minister of Education now to acknowledge that Tory policies, both federal and provincial, have, in fact, closed the doors of training and are giving a gene ration of young Manitobans a future of unemployment. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minis ter of Education and Tra in in g) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I absolutely reject, absol utely tota lly, what that member has said. She is just completely wrong. I would say to the member, first of all, she speaks of young Manitobans.

I am sure she knows that Manitobans of all ages atte nd our educational inst itutions, including Red River Com munity College. I also explained to her on Friday that waiting lists without a student number have been unreliable and that the college is moving ahead to look at what the waiting lists really mean in terms of is that a first, second or third choice for students. What is it that really is the true waiting list? I would also remind the member as well that with the colleges having mo ved to governance, which is a major initiative, it allows the colleges, therefore, to set up other kinds of training.

Some of it may be short-term training. Some of it may be longer-term training which they negotiate themselves directly. Course Cancellations Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Madam Deputy Sp eaker, the min ister con ti nues to look at enrollment issues as essentially minor accounting pro blems. I want to ask the minister to explain why Red River Com munity College has cut courses in telec ommun ication and refrigera tion, courses where there is both a continued em ployer demand and certainly a high student demand. Is ther e any connection in this gove rnment between education and training and industrial strate gy?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minis ter of Education and Training): Madam Deputy Speaker, as I explained to the member when she first raised this se ver al mo nths ago, the reduction in telecom munications specifically has been by one intake . There are continued intakes. There is another intake which the member well knows, had she in fact checked with the college. She also knows that this reduction was a result of the federal funding change, and how the federal gove rnment is providing funding for training through the colleges, flowing it through the provincial go vernment.

The member also knows that the colleges, now that they have moved to governance, may in fact be able to renego tiate that particular intake or another one back dir ectly from the federal gove rnment. Adult Basic Education Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Will the minister confirm that the reason Red River Com munity College cancelled yet ano ther Adu lt Bas ic Edu cation pro gram , this time for 50 men tally handicapped students at Premier Personnel, was because it gene rated no re venue for the college? Is this now the future for Adult Basic Education in the province of Manitoba? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey {Minis ter of Education and Training): The whole issue of Adult Basic Ed uc ation is a ve ry impo rtant one to the Department of Education and Tr aining. Therefore , as I spoke about in the 70 hour s of Estimates, I outli ned to the memb er at that time how this department and this gov ernment is now looking to provide a more effi cient Adult Basic Educ ation progr am, and to also widen the opportu nities for Manitobans in terms of Adult Basic Education, because the memb er knows that for some of those individuals, they actually requir ed literacy training.

Student Social Allowances Program Information Tabling Request Mr. Paul Edwa rds {Lea der of the Second Opposition): As the First Minister will know from the comm ittee rea ding of the student social allowance act and the ques tions posed in this Ho use to his minister by me, I, too, share the concerns of the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), the Leader of the New Demo cratic Party, that withdrawal of that service is absolutely backward, absolutely inc ons iste nt with everything this go vernmen t pu rports to be about in terms of education. But I heard today some new things.

The First Minister seems to say that students have left home to access this progr am, and they have quit jobs to access this progr am. No w, Madam De puty Speaker, that is absolute nonsense. If one had attended the heari ngs, everyone who knew anything about this pr ogram said ever ything exactly opposite to that. There was absolutely no

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5904 evidence that came forward about that, either from the minister or from any of the presenters. Can the First Minister table any evidence that those things he is relying on to defend his cut of this prog1ram are in fact true? Hon1. Gary Fllmon (Premier): If the member were paying atte ntion to the issue, he would see that- Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (In kster) : If you were paying attention to the issue, you might be able to do a better response. Mr. iFIImon: Madam De puty Speaker, the member for Inkster wants to respond to his Leader. • (1 ass) Mr.

Edwards: That type of attempt to dodge the buiiE•t is not going to serve this Premier. This Premier has made statem ents- Madam Depu ty Speaker: Order, please. The honClurable Leader of the second opposition party, to pClse a question. Mr. Edwards: I have a further ques tion for the First Ministe r. H� also indicated that there was no guarantee that careers would be available, in any event. What evidence is there that these people will be less able to have a career, less able to get off the welfare system if they do not have an education? That is the only hope.

That is what we heard time and time again at the com mittee. What evidence does this First Minister have that withdrawing this program will do anything to help those peopl e, and, in fact, will not cause them absc1lutely irreparable damage in their search for a career? Mr. Fllmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, in respondi ng to the member's initial questions, all he needed to do was to read the newspaper coverage of the various debates that have taken place now for at least three months on the issue. People acknowledged on the record and were named in the newspaper, who said they quit jobs to go onto this program .

So I do not need to do his research for him. All he has to do is pay atte ntion to the de bate instead of ge1t invo lved at this late stage. The fact of the matter is that we have said, if you are �1oing to spend public money, you should have som4� idea that it will create positive effe ct, not that you will be able to say it will not create any negative effects. It is one of those things that he is saying, like chicken soup, it would not hurt. Well, it costs a lot of money.

There is a tremendous investment of the public in it, and we want to be assured that we are having a positive effect and that we can direct the dollars to get the maximum benefit. That is the whole principle behind the decisions being made. Mr. Edwards: My fi nal ques tion for the First Minister: If, in fact, he is saying that this program did not work, it was unsuccessful, can he produce the study that shows that? Can he produce the study that his department presumably did to show that this does not work? Secondly, can he tell us, if this does not work, what will work?

What new program is he going to replace this with? Nothing. The fact is they are cutting, they did it in an unthinking way and they have nothing to replace it with. Mr. Fllmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, again, if he had paid atte ntion to the debate, the Leader of the Second Opposition would know that no other gove rnment in Canada is carrying on a program of this nature. Secondly, the Leader of the Liberal Party is alleging that we are saying that we have no other program. We have said there is another program that is being developed that we believe will be mor e targeted and a more effective use of tax dollars.

SOSAR Program Elimination Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Madam Deputy Speake r, there have been so many programs elimi nated by this Conse rvative cutback gove rnment that it amoun ts to a vicious attack on the poor. In addition to the elimination of the Student Social Allowances Program-[interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am certain all honourable members would like to afford the courtesy to the honourable member for Burrows to pose his question. * (1 400) Mr.

Martindale: Madam Deputy Speaker, I have learned today that this gove rnment has eliminated another program called SOSAR which allowed single parents to attend university full time. In fact, that was a requ irement, they must have attended full time. This allowed many individuals, including a social worker I just spoke to a few minutes ago, to

5905 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 get off social assistance, to get a full-time job, to be tota lly independent and to be paying taxes. I wou ld like to ask the Mini ste r of Family Services: Why did his gove rnment eliminate this excellent program which allowed many people over the years to get off social assistance and into paid em ployment? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Min ister of Family Services): Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the member is aware that this departm ent in the past has spent upwards of $1 2 million to $1 3 million on training progr ams for people on social allowances.

All of the training programs have now been mo ved over to the Department of Education. I have also indicated and the me mber is aware, in the whole area of social assistance, this is a very dynamic area. There are major changes that are taki ng place acr oss Canada, across No rth America. There are some changes we will be addressing in the near future that I think will meet some of the concerns that have been raised to day. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the minister why did he and his government, when given a choice between assisting people for two to four years to become indep endent, choose to eliminate this program instead of allowing it to conti nue, the alternative being they are on social assistance , perhaps even indefinitely. Why did they make this choice? Mr. Gllleshammer: Madam Deputy Speaker, the training programs for the Single Parent Job Access, the Gateway prog ram and other s are still in existence. If there are people who meet those guidelines, they will be allowed to persist with their edu cational plans.

If there are extenuating circumstances that take them beyond the regulations that are in place there now, I would personally look at those on an individual basis. If the mem ber has a particular case, as he often does, if he wants to bring the case forward, I would see that that individual gets fair treatment. Mr.

Martindale: I thank the minister for that helpful answer because, indeed, I do have a particular individua l I would like him to lo ok into the circums tanc es of, who is six mo nths from graduating, who, when she graduates, could be earning $38,0 00 a year, instead of being paid $1 3,000 a year on social assistance- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member for Burrows have a question? Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister look into this particular example, but also will his government reconsider not just for one individual, but for many people who want to get a university education, instead of being on social assistance? Mr. Gllleshammer: I had already indicated that I would ensure that the individual the member is representing would get fair treatment. However, I am always cautious with the member's examples. Last week, he talked about hundreds of phone calls and letters, and then prod uced one he had written himself.

We are looking into that, and if you do have other examples, we would be pleased to look into them and see that, by the guidelines and regulations, individual Manitobans do get fair treatm ent. Education System Reform Action Plan Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Madam De puty Speaker, the Minister of Education talks about initiatives in edu cation but provides no definitive action plan for educ ation reform . During the Estimates, the minister repeatedly failed to provide information on the timetable and scope of any legislative reform or reform of The Public Schools Act.

She has no plan, no time table and absolute confusion. In view of the fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been almost six months since the legislative report of the panel on legislative education reform was received by the minister, I want to ask this mini ster whether she today can prov ide this Legislature with an action plan on reform of The Public Schools Act in this pro vince. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): As I said in the announcement last week, we have six major initiatives which are ongoing in the Dep artment of Edu cation and Training.

They are interlocking initiatives, and the reform of The Public Schools Act is one. As the member knows, I am sure he may have heard during comm ittee hearings, perhaps he did not, various organizations who presented have said they have received a copy of the report and that they are looking at their responses, and as he will have rememb ered, perhaps he will not, they

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5906 have not yet forwarded the responses from the field into the Dep artment of Education and Training. Public Schools Act Amendments Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): Madam De puty Sp•�aker, I want to ask the minister specifically, in light of the fact that there are major educational issues that nee d addr essing by this minister, including such issues as equal oppor tunity for students across this provi nce, greater co mmunity inv•olvement of schools, the me dical requirements of sp ecial needs students, violence in the schools-! want to ask the minister whether she is comm itting to a major rewrite of The Public Schools Ac1t that will dea l with these critical issues in education. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): As the member knows, we already have a number of those issues ongo ing. The memb er may know, he prob ably does not remember, but in the 70 hours of Estimates, we spoke about the $3 million that is specifically designated to initiatives to deal with violence in the schools. We have a boundary review ongoing. ThEI Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), myself and the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) looked very care fully at medically fragile children, and before the next school year we will be able to malke a joint announc emen t on that initiative.

That will be a po licy initiative, Madam Dep uty Speake r. However, in terms of the reform of The Public Schools Act, this gove rnmen t has be lieved in consu ltation. We released the docu men t to the field, and we are awaiting their response. Mr .. Plohman: Madam Deputy Speaker, during the Estimates, the minister could not even say- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Plohman: I want to ask the minister: Will she co mmit today to ensuring that these important issues I have brought forward to her during the Estimates and in this Legis lature will be addressed in tlhe next session of the Legislature by way of major amendmen ts to The Public Schools Act? Mm. Vodrey: Madam De puty Sp eaker, the memb er is not listening. The ans wer to the mem ber is that we are already dealing with a number of those issues. I have explained to him how we are dealing with violence in the schools.

I have explained to him how we are dealing with medically fragile children and the issues that have been outlined for the reform of The Public Schools Act we now have out in the field. We are awaiting the response of the field to that particular report, and then gove rnment will be looking at the initiative for the reform of The Public Schools Act . Manitoba Mineral Resources Sale of Assets Mr. Paul Edwards (Lea der of the Second Oppositi on): Madam De puty Sp eaker, my question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

In 19 71 , the Man itoba Miner al Resour ces Corpora tion was set up and the mandate, which is still current, was to assist in the discovery and development of new mines in Manitoba, to create new wealth and opportu nities for Manitobans and enhance shareholder value. The only shareholder in that corpora tion, of course, is the Province of Manitoba. The corpora tion has made a profit in five of the last six years. It is our under standing, it has come to our atte ntion that the minister is actively considering the winding up of that corpora tion.

I wonder if the minister could indicate whether or not that indeed is his intention and, if so, what has promp ted this retreat from the government's active involvement in pro moting the mining indus try in Manitoba. Hon. James Downey (Minis ter of Energy and Mines): Madam Deputy Speaker, let me assure the member that we are aggressively supporting the mining industry with all the new prog rams that have been introduced by this gove rnment, the encoura gement for prospe cting and developing, work with the prospectors of this pro vince.

I am encour aged by the numbers of people showing interest in the mining industry in Manitoba. As far as it relates to the specifics of MMR, I answered that question during the comm ittee report, and I would refer the memb er to those Hansard notes. Mr. Edwards: Madam Deputy Speaker, I do recall that discussion. I was there at the time. I want to ask the minister again, and if the answer is that MMR is not considering the selling off of its assets then let that be on the record, is he or is he not considering the selling off of the assets of the Manitoba Miner al Resources Corporati on? Mr.

Downey: Madam Deputy Speaker, what I indicated, and I will refer again to the members of

5907 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 the Legislature, is that in the interests of the people of Manitoba, we will be look ing at all matters that will enco urage and enhance the mining industry in Manitoba. As it relates to MMR, as I said, ther e would be a review c arried on as to its effectiveness and how it would play a future role in the province of Manitoba. Review Mr. Paul Edwards (Lea der of the Sec on d Opposi tion): Ma dam De put y Speaker, the minister speaks of a review.

Can he indicate to the members today what stage that review is at, who is doing it and when we can expect to hear back from the minister as to the review on this very impo rtant issue? He seems to be saying that the review is ob viously going to consider whether or not to sell off the assets, but is unwilling to indicate today whether or not that will be the political decision. Can the minister indicate if the review is going on , who is doing it and when we can expect a decision to be made on this important issue for all Manitobans, but in particular northern Manitobans? * (141 0) Hon.

James Downey (Minis ter of Energy and Mines): Madam Deputy Speaker, as far as an outside review, there is not an outside review going on by anyone else. As far as I am co ncerned as minister, as I said in the Estim ates pro cess-or I am sorry, no t the Estimates process but comm ittee review, it would be taken unde r review by my office as to the effectiveness of MMR, and, of course, the Hansard which co mes fro m tha t com mi ttee fur ther expresses my commen ts as it relates to this matter. Red River Valley Flood Condition Monitoring Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to put my question to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Having driven into the city of Winnipeg from the Emer son area this mo rning, having witnessed the aux Marais River flowing full capacity of its banks, as well the Plum River, the Morris River and many of the other smaller streams that flow into the Red River, and having witnessed yesterday some five to six inches of rain falling in the Emer son area and hearing the forecast in the Pembina area of some seven inches of rain at Pem bina and up to 10 inches of rain falling in Grand Forks, I am asking the Minister of Natural Resources what action he and his de partment are taking to ensu re that residents or farmers in the Red River Valley can take some comfort in actions he has initiated to co-oper atively mo nitor water flows and actions in the Red River Valley and whether we can be assured that there are proper facilities in place to help some of these towns and individuals to fight the flood that might, in fact , co me.

Hon. Harry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resources) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the ho no ur able me mber for a ver y app ropria te question. I report to honourable members that we do have, by and large , go od rela ti ons hip s with ou r neig hbours to the south. I note the long-sta nding operations, for instance, of the facility contro lling the streams in the southwest like the Souris, where we actually have bo ard me mber s sitting on the board that controls the Darlingford structure just in the Mino t area. The area the honourable member refers to and is mo re familiar with has mo re problems.

We do have an ongoing relationship. We are members of the international coalition that me ets on a fairly regular basis that has to do with the Red River basin. I think this waxes and wanes. During the drou ght years, we tend to forget it. I do know that during the 70s when we had two major years of high water, '74 and '79, there was some very hi gh- level consu ltation go ing on between the gove rnors of Minneso ta and No rth Dakota, and I would hope that maybe this season will precipit ate such furthe r me etings. Disaster Assistance Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is very obvi ous that the opposition member s, in light of the fun they are making of the question, have very little sympathy for the huge number of- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable member s this is not a time for debate. This is a time for questions. Point of Order Mr. Jerry Storie (FII n Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, on a po int of order, the memb er for Em er so n, in his re marks, was impug ning the

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5908 mo tives of memb ers oppo si te , who were encc>uraging the member for Emer son to simply tap the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) on the shoulder and ask the question, rather than abuse the 1rules and use Question Perio d, which is for the opposition to ask questions of this incompetent go vt�rnment. Madam Depu ty Speaker: Order, please. The ho nourable member for Flin Flon did not have a point of or der. *** Mr.

Penner: Madam Deputy Speaker, I find it rather interesting that the honourable member for Flin Flon criticiz ed- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Dep uty Speaker: Order, please. The hon•ourable member for Emer son is atte mpting to post� his question, but even I cannot hear him ov er the roar. The honourable member for Emerson, to quickly post� a supplementary question. Mr. Penner: I would like to ask the Minister of Natural Resources whether he and the department are prepared to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst) and his disaster relief program whether they would participate in the same manner in the Red River Valley that they participated in ·the Swan Vall·�y. Hon. Harry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resource s): One of the unique features is the diffE1 rence in the kind of flooding. The kind of flooding we experien ced in the Swan River Valley off the Duck Mountains is quite different than the Red River Valley flooding that we have , which, as damaging as it is to the general crops, comes at us gen1tly.

I lhave to co mmend go vernm ents, both federal and provi ncial, ov er the past 20 years, that have don·� a tremen dous job of drou ght-proofing, to a large extent, the Red River Valley. I mean the individual hom esteads, the ring dikes around the major co mmunities of Ste. Agathe, St. Ado lphe, Monris, Emer son, and I know the member is aware of this. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, the mo st impo rtant point the ho nourable member makes is such a valid point.

We have massive and major economic loss being experienced in the province of Manitoba, and what we hear from the opposition is nothing but spend, spend, spend on mo re social programs, not realizing that this eng ine of economic activity, namely rural Mani toba, agricultu ral Manitoba, needs to survive to provide those funds. ARCOR Board Members' Severance Pay Mr.

Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, speaking of wasting millions and millions of dollars of taxpayers' money, since January of 19 89, the Aging and Rehabili tati on Pr od uct Development Corporation has had a board in place appo inted by the two levels of go vernment.

Madam Deput y Speaker, my question to the minister responsible for this centre and of the government's funding: Was the minister made aware of, was the minister consu lted, did the minister have any part of the decision to provide some $685,000 in severance of wasted taxpayers' dollars to the members of this particular corporation who were severed from their em ployment? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism) : The memb er for Flin Flon, I believe, is fully aware that there is an independent board that has been set up by the two levels of gove rnment to make decisions as it relates to the operations of ARCOR. It was a bo ar d decisio n in terms of the term ination of some six emp lo yees. I sho uld correct the honourable member that the figure, the termi nations costs, that were quoted in one of the newspapers ov er the wee kend were partly inco rrect.

There was a lette r sent from the chairman of ARCOR to one of the newspapers her e in town that did a breakdown of what tho se termination costs were. While they are still sig nificant, I agree, the termin ation pay was some $285,000, not the six hundr ed and some tho usand dollars that the honourable member is refe rring to, certainly a very significant sum of money, and I am no t denying that, but the decisio ns had to be made to get that corporation back on track. I belie ve no w it is on track in terms of accom plishing the objectives that were originally set out for that corp orat ion. * (1 420)

5909 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Audit Tabling Request Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deput y Speaker, the hundreds of jobs that were promised by the creation of these centres of excellence have disappeared along with mo st of the Tory promises.

My question to the minister is: Given the fact that there has been an audit of this particular operation, can the minister now indicate when he will table the resu lts of that audit so that mem bers of this Le gislature can judge whether the go vernment and this minister have acted in the interest of taxpaye rs, preventing the loss of mo ney and the wasting of millions of dollars in something that has produced virtually no jo bs? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism) : The annual financial state ment s are cert ainly available to the member for Flin Flon.

It is interesting to note, Madam Dep uty Speaker, we ju st went th rou gh the Esti mates of my de partment which is responsible for this, and not a single question was asked abo ut ARCOR, obvi ously now being driven by media coverage of this issue, not by any research being done by the member for Flin Flon.

I think what the mem ber for Flin Flon is referring to is an independent internal management review that was do ne by ARCOR in 19 90 by the accounting firm Coopers and Lybrand, which deals with a range of issues, a range of personnel issues that are confidential to that corporation because of the sen sitivity around many of the issues they deal with. At this particular point in time, the advice is that rep ort should no t be released. Mr.

Storie: Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact that this minister is 50 percen t responsible for this mess, for the fact that there are no jobs and that millions of dollars have been wasted, a reasonable question to the Minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism: Will he now table the auditor's rep ort so that we can see who is responsible for this mess and why it has been such a dismal failure on be half of the taxpayers of Manitoba? Mr.

Stefans on: Once agai n, I as sume the member for Flin Flon is referring to this internal managemen t review that was done by Coopers and Lybrand back in 19 90 that dealt with a series of issues the board took action on. It dealt with some personnel matters that the board took action on, and that is the reason you have the severance pay figures. It also led to some actions that the board has taken to reduce their annual expenditures by some $1 million. It also dealt with some issues around product commer cialization and a refo cusing of the organiza tio n in terms of me et ing the ori ginal objecti ves.

It is interesting that only the NDP can argue these kinds of issues out of both sides of the ir mo uths. I get questions occas io nally about research and development. Her e is an area of research in terms of independen t living for our aging co mmunity and product comm ercialization. The board, an independent bo ard, has taken action to deal with that. They have a mandate to be self-sufficient by 19 96-97, and I believe that will occur.

The report the member is refe rring to is an internal management repo rt that deals with a range of personnel issues tha t, no t un like many organizations, are separate and distinct reports. I will gladly provide the financial informati on, the annual financial statement, and I look forward to future Estima tes processes where we can talk abo ut all of the fin ances on ARCOR, Madam Deputy Speaker. Barley Industry Continen tal Market Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Since the announcement of the conti nen tal barley market, farmers across the province have been concerned with the impacts of this decision.

In fact, today there are rallies along the border with farmers from both countries, from the United States and Canada, exp ressing their concern about their losses due to the contine ntal barley market. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will recognize that the changes that are being made by this continental barley market are having a ne gative impact on farmers, and will he take seriously his respo nsibility as Minis ter of Agricu lture and address the concerns of those people who are gathering at the U.S.-Ca nadian bo rder today, pro testi ng the chang e to a contine ntal barley market? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Min ister of Agriculture): Madam Deput y Speake r, as the memb er well knows, this is a rather controversial issue. There are people on both sides of the argument, but there are farmers who believe the opportunity is one they have wanted for a long time, and the time is right to

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5910 do it. They say the price will go up. On the oth er side, the people whom she stands up for are the people who say the price will go down, and they do not want it. What is available to the farmers is choice. Those who want to mo ve the market in barley and sell it themselves have that option. Those who do not want to sell it them selves can sell it to the Canadian WhE1at Board, and the Canadian Wheat Board can sell it in the United States, as well as elsewhere in the world. Madam Dep uty Speaker, it is all about choice.

Nobo dy is for cing the oth er side to do what they do no t want to do. Cho ice is what farmers have wanted, and it is offered to them at this point in timet. Ms .. Wowchuk: Madam De puty Speaker, the choi1ce that farmers have in this is lower prices for thei1r barley.

Madam Deputy Speaker, because there was not full consu ltation on the chang e to a continen tal barley market and becaus e the ma jo rity of producers who are affected are not in agreement on this, will the Minister of Agriculture contact the new Pri me Minister and ask her to reverse this decision of a mo ve to a continental barley market until there is thorough consultation? Mr. Findlay: Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said in my first answer, those who do not want to sell it direct can sell it through the Wheat Board who can sell to the United States. That is the syste m as it alw•ays was. The choice still exists.

Further, within six years, a review will be done, and if at that time it is deemed it is not a workable solution, it can be reve rsed, Madam Dep uty SpE1aker. The situation is, nobody is forced to do what the oth er side wants. It is pure choice, and that is what the farm com munity wants. Madam Depu ty Speaker: Order, please. The tim�� for Oral Questi ons has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call Bill 28 follo wed by report stages, please, and I will giv�� further instruction at that time. Well, let us do it now.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we will then fo llow report stages with the process around Main and Capital Supply bills, at which time the concurrence mo tion can come forward. I would ask whether or not there is a willingness of the House to waive private members' hour and rise at five o'clock and then come back to the House to do House busine ss and comm ittee work beginning at seven o'clock to night. Madam Depu ty Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour and recess the House at 5 p.m. to return at 7 p.m . to continue regular House business? [agreed] Mr.

Manness: Madam Dep uty Speaker, I would also ask for concurrence of the Ho use to sit concurrently in two comm ittees outsid e, plus the com mittee inside the House mo st likely dealing with concu rre nce at the time, at 7 p.m . Could you ask for that agreement? Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimo us consent of the House to have two com mittees ru nning concu rrently outside the Ho us e commencing at 7 p.m., as well as co mmittee in the House to deal with concurrence? [agreed] Mr.

Manness: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would then call Econ om ic Development co mmittee at seven o'cl ock toni ght to hear Bill 42 and also Law Amendments committee to hear Bills 53 and 28, should it pass the House this afternoon. I forgot that Bill 53 had been shown in the Votes to be in the Econ omic Dev elopmen t committee, so could we mo ve Bill 53 from Economic Development to Law Amendmen ts? Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to mo ve Bill 53 from Economic Dev elopmen t comm ittee to Law Amendmen ts committee ? [agreed] Mr.

Manness: Yes, the n, Ma dam Dep uty Speaker, my request then ho lds-E co no mic Development com mittee at seven to consider Bill 42 and Law Amendments comm ittee at 7 p.m. to consider Bills 50, 53 and 28, if, indeed, it passes this afternoon. * (1 430) Committee Change Mr. Nell Gaudry (Sl Bon iface): Madam Deputy Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the memb er for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the co mpo sitio n of the Stand ing Comm ittee on Economic

5911 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Dev elo pmen t be amen ded as fo llows: River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 28- The Manitoba Intercultural Council Repeal Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second rea ding of Bill 28 (The Manitoba Intercultural Council Repeal Act; Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur le Co nseil intercultural du Manito ba), standing in the name of the ho nourable member for Inkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a little while since this bill was first introduced in second reading, actually a few mo nths back. We were quite- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I just want to notify all mem bers of the House that the Speaker has been given notice that the honourable member for Inkster has been designated unlimited time on Bill 28. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Deputy Speaker, the only reason for that is just to ensure that if, by chance, I need an extra few minutes, I can go ahead on it, so I can finish my remar ks on it. [inter jec tion] The Leader of the New Demo cratic Party (Mr. Doer) is right, it is a bad bill. It is a bill that should never have seen the light of day.

I wanted to go ov er what has happened with MIC over the last number of years, five years, so individuals have an under standing of what it is this gove rnment is doing with respect to the concept of multiculturalism in the province of Manitoba and, of course, I would argue that if you look at the actions they have taken, it does not go along with what many individuals who are out there, who work very hard at trying to ensure that Manitoba does in the real world reflect a multicultural society, that those individuals are in fact quite disappo inted with what this go vernment has done over the last number of years, because for all intents and purpo ses, we have seen a lot of lip service .

We have seen patro nage. We have seen organizations such as the Manitoba Intercultur al Council being taken apart, and I find that mo st unfortunate. Let me start off by talking about when I was first elected back in '88. One of the first things I saw the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitche lso

n) do was to take away the funding autho rity from the Manitoba Intercultural Council. The min iste r fa voured the Manitoba Gran ts Advisory Co uncil over MIC, because she was wanting to have mo re input in terms of who and which organizati ons were going to be receiving the multicultural grants.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that was when we first under stood what direction this gove rnment was going to be taking on multiculturalism in the province of Manitoba, because one of the first actions they did, is they cho se to start financing and giving the grants out to the different multicultural organizations, thereby politicizing the multicultural commu nity wherever they can by the issuance of these grants and cheques.

I think, if you fo llow it from that point right to today, where we now have before us Bill 28, which will in fact distance MIC from go vernment and could po tentially lead to a very fatal blo w to the organization as we know it, that is unfortunate, because the concept of the Manito ba Intercultural Council is a very positive one. I want to comment on that, because time after time we are given differen t opportunities inside this Chamber to talk about multiculturalism, and it is very easy to give lip service to multiculturalism.

Many individuals will talk abo ut or re late to multiculturalism as the songs, dance and the ethnic cuisines that are there, and believe that that is in fact what multiculturalism is in mo st part. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is only one aspect of multiculturalism. I have been give n the opportunity as a multicultural critic, to go out to a number of different events ove r the past few years, and I like to talk about multiculturalism, and when I talk about multiculturalism, it is mo re than just the song and the dance.

We are talking about the political, economic and social integra tion, at the same time appreciating what tho se individuals have brou ght fro m their home land, whether you are first gene rati on, a recent immigrant, or 15 th generation, that we do have a sense of responsibility to ensure that those cultures and our ancestors' traditions, cultures and he ritages are in fact preserved, because that is what gives us our Canadian identity. A story that I often make reference to is one from a teacher in the no rth end.

She had a student teacher come into her classroom once, and the student teacher started off by asking the children

Jullr 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5912 what they had for breakfast. The first child that she ask·ed this particular question, the response was, of course, I had fried pork along with rice. Madam Deputy Speaker, the student teacher kind of looked at the student in a very odd , peculiar wa�· type of thing, and then continued to go down as�i ng some children in terms of what they had for break fast. Another student was asked , of the same ethnic background as the first one, and had said fried eggs and toast, and the mo re tra ditional, if you like, type of bre akfast.

Well, the teacher brought the student teacher to that latter student and asked in fact: Did you have that eggs-and-bacon-and- toast-type thing? The student had replied no, but I thou ght that is what the tea<:her wanted to hear. We ll, Madam Deputy Speaker, you can have racial incidents by accident. Those accidents, if you will, will occu r. Then you will have incidents which are fairly clear. You have the different extremes, right from the Ku Klux Klan hotline, if you like, to an incident that can happen that is ver y innClcent-at least appear s to be very inno cent in the classroom .

What is mo st important is that we as legislators realize that both are in fact wrong and that we need to do what we can to ensure that incidences of these natures are minimized. I would refer members to read the Combatting Racism repo rt in par ticular that the Manitoba Intercultural Council put out, and you will see that the best way to fight this particular issue of racism is thro ugh educ ation and tolerance. This is something in which it has been suggested to the go vernment in a very, very strong way.

It would have been back in 19 90-Nov emb er, I belie ve it was- when MIC brought forward this particular repo rt and made some fairly simple recC lmmendations that would have been very easy for this go vernment to follow. One of the ones, and I have brou ght it up on nume rous occ asions to the cu rrent minister, was that one-day cross-cu ltural experience for all of the MU�s inside the Chamber. Yet we do not see this gov· ernment acting on issues of that nature. I do belie ve th at when we talk abo ut this multicultural society that we live in, actions speak louder than words do.

This is what this bill again is do ing. The actions of this go vern men t in this particular bill is not going to benefit the multicu ltural fabric that we have, because MIC deals with issues such as racism, deals with issues such as syste mic barrier s that are put into place and quite often rep orts no t only to legislators or politicians, but co mmunity memb ers, because the Manit oba Intercu ltural Co uncil itse lf is made up of represe ntatives from all the different ethnic grou ps.

I have had the opportunity, as I say, to have met many of the different individuals, and I am no t aware of any oth er organization that has as many partici pants from different ethnic backgrounds involved in one organiza tion.

That is the reason why I say the concept of the Manitoba Intercultural Council is a very positive one and that if in fact you want to be able to make some strides in terms of dealing with those real multicultural issues that are there, you need to have organizations such as the Manito ba Intercultural Council. * (1 440) What this go vernment is doing through Bill 28 is in fact a backward ste p. Now, I wanted to put this into proper perspective in terms of what it is that this go vernment is doing.

Having said in terms of how impo rtant that we recognize that actions do speak louder than words, I want to talk about some of the actio ns that this gove rnment has done. I made reference to the Intercultural Council and the funding it used to have in terms of granting authority to the different multicultural organiza tions. The minister took that responsibil ity away from MIC and put it into the Mani toba Grants Advis ory Council. Well, what is the difference between the two organizations?

MIC, in mo st part, is elected from the different ethnic co mmunities and the minister does have some input in a sense that she is able to appoint the chair and also other me mbers onto the board itself. This is the agency that used to give the grants, Ma dam Deputy Speak er, and that gran ting autho rity was taken and given to MGAC. Well, MGAC is 10 0 percent appo inted from the minister.

If you look at the background of MGAC, you will clearly see how it is being manipulated and used by the gove rnment to try to take credit for the different organizations that are receiving grants as if it is this go vernm ent that is giving the mo ney to that organiza tion, as opposed to MIC that was giving the mo ney on behalf of the taxpayers. It was just

5913 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 26, 1993 an allotmen t that was assigned through the lotte ries. Let us take a look at the MGAC. We remember the first chairperson of MGAC was David Langtry. David Langtry is an individual who has been the recipient of criticism from myself and not only myself, but by a number of oth er individuals who are out there in terms of his affi liation to the Conservative Party and why it is that this individual would in fact have been the chairper son of MGAC. Well, then we had the provincial ele ction. It is wonderful to see individuals running for of fice, but Mr.

Langtry ran for the Conservative Party in the riding of Kildonan. After the election in Kildonan, the gove rnment created the multicultural secretariat's offi ce , and David Langtry was taken from the campaign defeat and put into that partic ular position. Madam Deputy Speaker, one could question in terms of why it is that you bring up individuals. I think this is very symbolic. What happened was this office was created, and one of the first thing s that was do ne is mo re positions were hired. Well, another individual, the campaig n manager of Mr. Langtry, was brou ght into that offi ce.

Then there was another individual who was brought in through the civil service, and whatever happened to that particular individual? One should talk in terms of why it is that she was mo ved out or reques ted to be mo ved out, possibly because of some of the ongoing s that were going inside this particular off ice. Madam Deputy Speaker, this off ice cost the taxpayers a considerable amount of mo ney. The idea again of having a multicultural secretariat's off ice is a very positive one, but who is kidding who on this?

If we take a look at it, I would argue that the fi rst and fore mo st priority that the cu rrent secre tariat will have is no t the multicultural secretariat, but rather the Conservative Party. It will be interesting to see in terms of I go out to different events. The secretariat's off ice is out there whether it is the secretariat himself or the campaign worker who was there for Mr. Langtry in the 19 90 provincial election. The of fice itself is being used as an extension of the Conse rvative go ver nmen t, of the Co nser vative Party . [inter je ction] The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst) says I am very suspicious. For good reason, I am very suspicious. I am sure if he was atte nding the same events I was atte nding--and no doubt he is atte nding different events-he would see these individuals, and the memb er for Ni akwa (Mr. Reimer ) is an individual who atte nds a go od number of the events I attend and will attest that these individuals are in fact there. If in fact you mingle around and you talk to some of the in dividuals who are attending these functions, they know, Madam Deputy Speaker. They are no t being fooled by this gove rnment.

When they see the multicultural secretariat's offi ce, it is the Conservative Party, and it is nothing mo re than that. The go vernment tries to sell this off as a civil servant. Madam Depu ty Speaker, if they are trying to say it is a civil servant, then how can you make it such a political appointment? Are we saying that the civil servic e--! will give some in terms of that there is a need for some appo intments based on po litics, but they are very selective positions. Anything within the civil service, I say an absolute no to.

This particular position, I believe, em bodies a lot of the neg ative fee lings that are out there when it comes to patronage that the public as a whole holds of politicians generally. It is reinforced every time we go to an event in which these individuals appear, and you talk to oth er people and they give you the sort of comm ents that they have to say. Madam Deputy Speaker, if we look again, going to MIC -and that is the one aspect, the granting powers, if you will, and how those were taken away.

The multicultural secr etariat's off ice also had those two positions that I referred to, and those were policy analysts. Those positions took away ano ther po wer from the Manito ba Intercultural Council, because that is what MIC was suppo sed to do . It was suppo sed to be advi sing the gove rnment, looking at different issues, analyzing th em, coming up with advic e and recomm endations to the gove rnment of the day. We ll, this is so methi ng that the multicultural secr etariat ag ain too k on as par t of their responsibility.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the gove rnment then comes out with this multicultural policy booklet. Inside this multicultural policy booklet, it made reference to having a multicultural act; from this booklet would come

an act. We saw that particular piece of legislation come in last year at which time I

July 26, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANI TOBA 5914 had the opportun ity to speak on the bill and the cc•ncerns that I had. I had a number of concerns about that particular bill, and some of them were addresse d. In fact, we did get some amendmen ts to the bill in the winding days or hours of last se•ssion, but there were some concerns that were not ever considered. • (1 450) We had the multicultural act intro duced.

The minister responsible for the act, when I asked her what she was doing with the Manitoba Intercultural Council, the minister's response to me was, well, we now have created the Don Blair report or task force. Mr. Blair was going to review what MIC is all about, its mandate and where it should fit in with any multicultural act. Maybe The MIC Act should just remain there in an amended form and so forth.

Madam Deputy Speaker, at that time, I indicated, or at least I was of the opinion, that the minister knew what it was she was wanting to do, that the consultant that was hired knew what his job was, and that was to assist the government in getting rid o11 the Manitoba Intercultural Council. In fact, we can even go back to previous sessions where I, relprese nting the Liberal Pa rty , int rod uced le,gislation or private memb ers' bills that made re•fe rence to The MIC Act. The minister at that time cc:>mmented on thos e bills and made reference to this multicultural act.

I remember one bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I introduced. It said something to the effect that MIC, the appointment of the chair, the minister should no longer do; that MIC should be able to appoint their own chair; that the appointments of the executive director should come from within, a�gain, the minister should not be appointing. The minister, to her credit, stood up and said, yes, and that the New Dem ocrats were wrong when they brought in the legislation, and they allowed for them to do that.

In fact, it implied to me, and it was very clear, that this gove rnmen t was going to be bringing in a multicultural act, and in that multicultural act they will address that parti cular proble m, that she disagreed with the Liberals because she felt that the Liberals were doing it in a piecemeal fashion. She said, why would you want to do it this way when in fact we are going to bring in a multicultural act which will take all of this into considerat ion?

Durin g th e de bat e and di scussion of the multicultural act that was in last sessi on, I found the specific quote from Hansard that I brought up to the minister. The minister could not refute or challenge that what she had assured at least the Liberal Party, the Liberal caucus, was that she was going to bring in MIC or make some changes to MIC that would, in fact, be incorp orated-or at least gave us the impression that it would be incorporated into the multicultural act. That is why I was very surprised to see that, when the multicultural act came forward, it was not inclu ded .

That is why we had pr opo sed amen dments and asked questions on it and lobbied the minister to incorpo rate MIC into the multicultural act. The minister, at that time, having changed her mind from the Liberal Party's bill dealing with MIC, had changed her mind and said, well, this re por t is coming back with rec ommen dations, and then we will deal with the Manitoba Intercultural Council. So we continued on with the discussion and debate on the multicultural act. As I said, we did get some amendments. You know, if you look at the multicultural act today, there is really and truly not that much to it.

You have the multicultural secretariat's of fice estab lished in the legislation. You have the Outreach Office, which, I believe, may be estab lished and a wonderful

preamble that I believe no one inside the Cham ber would say ot herwise. So, if you listen in terms of what it is I have been talking about, the multicu ltural secretariat, you might wonder why it is that we took the position at the time on that particular piece of legislation. Agai n, for many individuals, especially those individuals who are at the other end of the systemic barrier or racism, Madam Deputy Speaker, they want government to be proactive and to do what they can to deal with the many different issues that are there.

It is very easy for government to say that the multicultural secretariat's office is there to serve you, very easy to do that. In fact, as I said earlier, the concept is, in fact, a valid one and a go od one, but given the background and in particular what this gove rnment is doing with the multicultural secretariat, we would be better off not to have the secretariat's office and to use that money and put it into the Manitoba Intercultural Council or som e other expenditure that deals with the issues, whether it is English as a

5915 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Second Language training, reco gnition of credentials of immigrants who come to Canada, individuals who have been here for a number of years who are not practising what they did in their homeland because their credentials were never recog nized. Madam Deputy Speaker, the money would have been a lot bette r spent in those areas than the way this gove rnme nt is using and manipulating the mu lticultur al commu nity, the multicu ltural com mun ity being all Man itobans , with thi s par ticular offi ce . That is, in fact, what the gove rnment is doing .

That is very unfortunate, because the organization that has lost the most as a direct result of this particular minister's actions is the Manitoba Intercultural Cou ncil. Madam Deputy Spe aker, what has the MIC done tha t is so wrong? During the deba te on the multicultural act, because I had unlimited time, I had the opportunity at that time to go at length in terms of what MIC has done for Manitoba. I believe the government under estima tes the pote ntial good that could come out of the Manitoba Intercultural Council.

I have, from the 19 93 Bien nial Ethnocultu ral Assem bly, a list of the registered dele gates and organi zations they represent. I would like to challenge the minister to come up with another organization that represents so many different ethnic group s in the pr ovi nce of Manitoba. I do not believe she can. She might be able to make reference to the Folk Arts Council. The Folk Arts Council's primary focus is with Folklorama.

The Manitoba Intercultural Counc il, in the past, has dealt with the many different issues that are facing Manitoba and society as a whole, as a multicultural society, that is, Madam Deputy Speaker. All you need to do is look at their annual report, and you will find num er ous repor ts and advice and commen ts from that organization in terms of what gov ernmen t can do to make or to bette r reflect the mosaic of Manitoba. I want to list some of those organizations so that members of the Chamber are, in fact, aware. This again comes from the '93 Biennial Ethnocultural Assem bly.

Regis te red delegates range from the African Association of Manitoba, Agno Winnip eg Associa tion, Association of Cultur al Hispano Can., Association of United Ukrainian Canadians.

The list goes on-the Polish Congress, the Chinese Com munity Counc il, the Congr ess of Black Wom en, the Council of Carib bean Organizations of Manitoba, Immigrant Women's Associati on, India Association of Manitoba, India School of Dance, the National Assoc iation of Canadians of Origin in India, National Black Coalit ion , the Philippine Association of Man itoba, the Po rtu gues e Association of Manitoba, Punjabi Com munity Voluntary Organizatio n. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are talking about four pages of organizations that participated in the last asse mbly.

I covered just a handful, and these individuals are com munity leaders within the different organizations they represent. That is the reason why I say, you know, if you do not like the name, the Man itoba Intercu ltural Council, maybe you have a better name. Maybe the minister has a better name of what it is she would like to call this organiza tion, but come up with that name. The concept is a very go od one, and this gove rnment is ignoring that concept.

I, for the life of me, do not understand why, because I look at it and I try to under stand what it is that the Manitoba Intercultur al Council has do ne to this minister or this government that has made them take the actions they have take n. I do not see any reason why the Manitoba Intercultural Council could not be included in the multicultural act, no reason at all. I would like to hear from the minister why she believes that the MIC has no place or no role in the multicultural act. I would argue that the concept of MIC should, at the very least, be incorporated into the act.

If she does not like the name, change the name, but at least incor porate it into the multicu ltural act. If you cannot do that, then what is the sense of even having the multicultural act? I do not see the reason being the multicultural secretariafs offi ce or the Outreach Office. Yes, the concept of those are very positive. If government chose not to manipu late, they would be very beneficial, but surely to goodness the Manitoba Intercultural Council is just as valuable.

I would argue that an organization such as this is mo re valuable because they can bridge the different cultures and ethnic groups that are out there. It is reflected in terms of the individuals who

Jully 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5916 mc:tke up the particular cou ncil. It reflects all the dif11erent ethnic groups that are out there. • ( 1 500) We talk every day, Madam Deputy Speaker, about issues that come before this Chamber.

Well, if )IOU want to be able to deal with some of these iss:ues, you need to have the commun ity leaders of thEt different ethnic groups who are out there talking about and dealing with the different issues that a particular com munity might be faci ng, beca �se what might be impo rta nt to one com mumty, possi bly becaus e of an immigrati on wave or whatever it might be, is not necessarily of the same importance to another commu nity. You could get a good example of that by just looking at the issues that continually come up with th,a different organizations that are out there .

There are different organizations I talk to where racism is the biggest issue . Other organizations talk about lack of recognition of credentials as their bi!�gest issue. It vari es tremen dou sly in terms of what the di11erent comm unities require, but what we need to de• is to ensure that the different commu nities are, in fact, working together, because if you do have that, I would suggest to you we will have more harmony in society in the future. We should be fo st er ing or ganiz ati ons, not de" str oying organizations such as the Manitoba Intercultural Council.

I wanted to go ov er some of the rec omme ndations. The minister brought forward this particular piece of legislation because of the Doon Blair report. Mr. Blair's report has received a considerable amount of criticism from different leaders of the different ethnic commu nities. Even I myself, as the critic for the Liberal Party, have been som ewhat critical of it, and for good rea son. These are the highlighted areas, as per the news reo lease back on February 4, 19 93, where Mr.

Bllair's first recomm endation is that The MIC Act be re•pealed, and then it goes on: In the alternative, that The Manitoba Intercultural Council Act be amended to rem ove the power of governmen t to appoint council memb ers, to appoint the chair pt:trson and to hire the executive secretary. Madam De puty Speaker, I belie ve that the minister had a choice . The minister did not have to dism antle the Man itob a Intercu ltural Council le•gislation, and wipe it out entirely. Even if the minister reads Mr. Blair's report, the second-and this comes from the highlight that her gov ernment has put out.

It says that, as an alternative to repealing The MIC Act, The MIC Act be amended to remo ve that power of gove rnment to appoint council members, to appoint the chairpers on, and to hire the executive secretary. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what the Minister of Culture, Her itage and Citiz enship (Mrs. Mitchelson) said she agreed with. She agreed with taking that power away from the minister and giving it to the board itself, MIC. But she takes the argument that we in the Liber al caucus put forward five years ago, and she went a step further.

She believes or tries to tell the House that this particular bill is justified, not only because she is concerned about the aspects that we have raised, but she wants to make it eve n that muc h mo re indepen dent. The bes t way to do that is to do the fi rst recom men dati on, which was to repeal the act completely, in its entirety. To this day, I have yet to hear the Min is ter of Cu lture, He ritage and Citiz en ship (Mr s. Mi tchelson) put up a valid argument as to why MIC has to be repealed, that the changes that she is hoping for, the changes that Mr.

Blair is suggesting to her, could not be incorpor ated within the multicultural act. Madam Deputy Speaker, if she feels that she cannot do that, if she is unable to bring MIC or incor porate it into the multicultural act, then why does she feel that she has to repeal it? Why does she not follow what Mr. Blair is suggesting as an alternative to repealing the act-t hat is, just to make those mo difi cati ons tha t were being sugges ted to her a number of years ago? I would like to hear from the minister why it is that she feels so firmly on it. Mr.

Blair sugges ts that the Manitoba Intercultural Council develop a clear definition of whom it represents, a specific role and mandate aQICeptable to its memb er ship; specific processes for an election of deleg ates and cou ncil me mber s, com mittee mem bers and executive memb ers; a process to ensure some degree of continuity of council and executive members; staggered terms to allow for elections of half memb ers while the other half remain to provide conti nuity; a longer term plan with goals and objectives for which it is accou ntable to its membership and to government and the public in the event the act is not rescinded.

5917 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Madam Deputy Speaker, it goes on, and I would suggest to you that everything that Mr. Blair is talking about could be done in the multicultural act. If the minister does not want to bring MIC into the multicultural act, everything that Mr. Blair is talking about can be done within the cu rrent Manitoba Intercultural Council Act or what Bill 28 is going to take away. This is not an issue that is new to this Chamber. If you have been listening to my commen ts, you will see that we have brought it up on numer ous occ asions.

I, as the critic for the Liberal Party, had taken the minister at face value, in particular, in the session prior to last when I last introduced the MIC bill into this Chamber. In that particular bill, I had sugg ested to the gov ernment that they give them that appointment power and that they also give them back the funding authority. We had amended and changed our bill, the bill that the Libe rals were putting forward, because I believed at the time that the mini ste r was, in fact, onside with us on the appointments.

I did not expect her to come onside with the funding, unfortunately, and nor do I expect her to come onside with the funding. The only way, Madam De puty Speaker, I can see a change in the funding is with a change in government or, at the very least, a change in attitude possibly from a different minister. This session, unfortuna te ly, the Chamber will never hear it, so I wanted to read it anyway. I was going to be introducing a resolution on behalf of the Liberal caucus.

It happens to be Resolution 69, and with the government's approach to private members' hour, this resolution will not, in fact, be debated. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) • (1 51 0) Mr.

Speaker, you will find that the resolution has a lot to do with this particular bill, and it read s-a nd I would have mo ved, and I would have had a seconder, I am sure; at least I could have selec ted from any member of the opposition party because I believe that New Democr ats are onside with this particular resolution, and that would have read: That the Manitoba Intercultural Council has a significant role to play in the multicultural society in which we live.

Whereas the Manitoba Intercultural Council can provide Manitoba with a unique and valuable perspec tive on the status of multiculturalism in Manitoba;

whereas the minister responsible for the Manitoba Intercultural Council has demo nstrated her lack of suppor t for MIC by removing the council's granting authority, reducing its adv isory role in exc luding MI C from the multicultural act, therefore

be it resolved that the Leg islative Asse mbly of Manitoba urge the minister responsible for the Manitoba Intercultural Council to reconsider her support of MIC. Mr. Speaker, this particular resolution would have been put on the table back in November or December of 19 92, well in advance of Mr. Blair's report coming out. The reason why we brought forward this resolution is because I was convinc ed at that time that in fact what the Minister of Culture, He ritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson) was doing with MIC and the way in which she brought the Don Blair report and afte r having an interview with Mr.

Blair in my off ice, this gove rnment had absolutely no intention of bringing MIC into the multicultural act. I had no idea in terms of this governme nt's ability to be able to respect the hard work of hundreds of volunteers ove r the last number of years that have put in endless hours towards making Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, a better place to live in a multicultural society, the same better place I am talking about that the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizen ship (Mrs.

Mitchelson) talks about when she gives her speeches, whether it is to a citizenship court, whether it is to a multicultural or an ethnic group out in the co mmuni ty. Those are the very same individuals that she is now taking the legislation away from . I find that very upsetting, and I am sure many individuals find it upset ting. I belie ve that the minister does owe it to those individuals, to those groups that she talks to, an explanation as to why she feels that the Manitoba Intercultural Council, The MIC Act, has to be repealed because even Mr. Blair himself has not concluded that MIC has to be repealed.

The individual that they recruited to put the death nail in MIC did not, Mr. Speaker, say that it had to be repeale d , in fact, recognized that as an alternative, there are some changes that were in fact necessary that would have given the minister everything that she wanted when she brought in this particular bill a couple of mo nths ago.

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5918 I listened and I read why the minister brought in this piece of legislation and everything has to do with giving MIC that much mo re of an independent fe eling, if I can put it that way, Mr. Speaker, that the gc,ve rnment does not want to control it in any way. Well, I find that to be a fairly poor excuse, and I do nc>t believe that it can justify it. I have had a number of reasons to believe why this minister is not a big fan of the Manit oba Intercultural Council and it stems back to a number o1� years ago, in fact, when the government was in o1pposition.

I am fully aware that when the New Dem ocrats brought in the Manitoba Intercultural Council, the Conser vative Party at the time believed that the NDP were going to be using this a:s an organization that was going to politicize the multicultural commu nity. [inter jection] Mr. Langtry knows. I have talked about him quite often. Mr. Speaker, when the New Dem ocrats brought in this piece of legislation, the Tories opposed it. Why did they oppose it? They opposed it because they believed that the NDP were going to use this organization in order to manipulate the different ethnic groups.

They were very upset with the gov ernment of the day at the time and suggested, in fact, that what they were doing was wrong. We ll, knowi ng full well that the Manit ob a Intercultural Council maybe at the time might have been very political in its makings, I believe that over time, what we ha ve seen is the Mani toba Intercultural Council become apolitical. I can say that knowing full well, in fact , that this is the case in most part.

As the multicultural critic, I belie ve I have attended maybe three asse mbly meetings of sorts, and I believe I have been at maybe one, possibly two, executive meetings of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. At no point in time-and I would challenge any me mber of the MIC or the mini ste r or the se cretariat's of fice to tell me that I have tried to manipulate or to use the Manitoba Intercultur al Council as a political diving board, if you will. I r,eally and truly believe that there are, no doubt, s:ome individuals within MIC who are, in fact, political.

I could not tell you how involved they might be in politics. I can say I am not aware of any who have helped me in my provincial elections at all. I do belie ve , very muc h so, that MIC was e'volving into a very apolitical organization, and I believe the organization could have been a lot healthier had the government chosen to foste r it, as opposed to destroying it. On the few occasions I have been able to meet with MIC in the form of general meetings, I have been very impressed and pleased with the high level of discussions in debates that have been presented at these meetings.

The minister herself made reference in Question Period a while back when I asked her about that cross-cultural awareness day for the MLAs. Her response was that she does not need to anymor e because MIC provided this cross-cultural day experience for us. She recognized, at least at that point, that, yes, MIC has done some things even she appreciates. I belie ve the minister is oversensitive to the Intercultural Council. I think she feels she got burnt in her first meeting or possibly the second meeting because I can recall back in '88 when the member for Selkirk at the time, Ms.

Charles, stood up and asked a ques tion about MIC. I belie ve it had something to do with the advocacy role, and the minister did not have a very good first meeting with the executive. * (1 520) I think that, unfortu nate ly, that particular meeting has remained in the mind of the minister, and she is somewhat vengeful and has not -nor will she rest until she feels that MIC, as we know it, no longer exists. That is very unfortunate , Mr.

Speaker, because one of the reports which I have had ample time, and I know the minister has, to go through was the last one that really MIC did of any great detail or dep th that I am aware of anyway. They could have done others. It was the one with respect to the "Com batting Racism in Manitoba." They came up with a number of rec ommen dations that dealt with everyt hing from the elected of ficials to our educational facilities and things which we can do to combat racism-as the report itself is titled. Mr. Speaker, there were a lot of volunteer hours that were put into coming up with this report.

It is close to 1 00 pages in length. The minister is quite content to throw it out the window and, along with that, has discouraged a great number of individuals that would have participated in a much more active way had we had a minister or a gov ernment that ga ve MIC the resp ect that it deser ves.

5919 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Unfortunately, as a result of that lack of respect, I do not see the future of the Manitoba Intercultural Council being as bright as it could have been, had the minister done the right thing. That would have been to incorporate MIC into the multicultural act, even if it disagrees entirely with giving it any mon ey whatsoever. I could go through organizations-because the minister has the list of the different organizations, ethnic organizations that receive money every year from gove rnment, from MGAC, if you will.

Now the mi nister is ta king the money away from an organization that I believe had potential to do a lot more for Manitobans as a whole than any other organiz ation that MGAC has likely even given a grant to. I think the minister has not done a service to this Legislature by bringing in this particular piece of legislation. I believe the minister, at the very least, if she plans to go ahead with this bill, should bring in a bill next session that will incorporate the concep t of MIC into the multicultural act.

I know that I will be working between now and the next session to come up with such a private mem ber's bill. Hopefully, we will see some refor ms inside the Chamber that will see private member s and the work and effort that private members put into bills and resolutions be given more than just lip service and just appear on the Order Paper and never reach a vote, because I do plan on putting in some time in coming up with a bill that will reflect the concept of MIC. Hopef ully, Mr.

Speaker, I will no t have to introduce it, because the minister will take a look at the cu rrent multicultural act and be able to make a decision that, for all inte nts and purposes, yes, the multicultural act says a lot of wonderful things and has some good concepts in it but has, in most part, proven to be a major disappointment to those Manitobans who looked to government in terms of coming forward with some creative ideas.

There are things that government can do to give strength to the multicultural act, things that it can do suc h as working with the Multicul turalism Secretariat's office and the Outreach Office, to do what she can to ensure that the civil service is, in fact, depoliticized, and only time will tell. I look forward to the next session when, no doubt, the gov ernment once again will give some direction on its beliefs in pol ic y on multicultur alism in the province of Manitoba.

Thus far, over the last five years, I would suggest to you that it has been a real disappointm ent, that the govern men t did have an opportunity, and, unfortunately -and I do not who is advising the minister. Well, I have a good idea who is advising the mini ste r, but I will hold back on those co mmen ts . Hopefu lly, we will see somethin g coming from this de partment that will do some bene fit to the commu nity. She has often talked about the data bank in terms of credentials, ESL. I think that we could see some tr emen dous resu lts if we see a fir m comm itment in those areas.

I am not, as of yet, convinced that the gov ernmen t has comm itted what it could in those areas, areas in which we will really have an impact on the everyday lives of individuals who are out there who are experiencing a lot of frustration. Having said those few words-and I know the member for River Heights was wanting to speak on this bill also--1 conclude my remar ks, and we will see it in com mittee this evening. Mrs. Shar on Carstalrs {River Heigh ts) : Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak on this particular bill, because I think the passage of this bill-and un doub tedly it will pass because of the Co nser vatives' majorit y-it is a sad day for the province of Manitoba and, quite frankly, a sad day for Canada as well. The whole concept of the Manitoba Intercultural Council was a bold concept. It was a bold concept with some flaws and some serious weaknesses, but it was indeed a bold concept that we would have a council reporting to a minister, who would advise the mi nis te r on issues affec ting the multicultural dynamic of this provi nce.

Canada prides itself on being a multicu ltural nation. We pride our selves on being different from the Un ited State s. They, of cou rse , refer to themselves as a "melting pot," where everyone is supposed to arrive on the shores of the United States of Am er ica and become some how immediate Amer ican citizens, with all that that entails, including, in my opinion, quite frequ ently, blind loyalty to the flag and to the nation. Canadians took a very different attitude.

We said that immigrants could arrive in this country, and that they could, in fact , maintain some of those characteristics which they brought to this nation from their earlier nation. We even went a step

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5920 further, not too very long ago, and said that they could, in fact, have joint citizenship with their old cou ntry and with their new countr y as a mark of respect to their heritage, to what they had been and to now what they are. When The Manitoba Intercultural Council Act came into being in 19 83 in the pr o vinc e of Manitoba, its purpo se and intent was to establish a group which could advise the minister of the day on is:sues affe cti ng th at multicultur al dynamic, b•:�cause we know that it is different.

There are within any nation what we call waves o1f immigrants. The older an immigrant population has been living in the nation, usually the easier their assimilation.

By the second gener ation, they usually speak English or Fre nch, as the case may bte, with the same fluency as those who have lived here for many generations, and so their ability to find em ployment, their ability to understand what their children are learning in school, their ability to ge t in touch with social services, their ability to practise their dem ocratic processes, those all become easier as, of cour se , the language beco mes easier for them .

Although Ca nada prides itself on being an intercu ltural and a multicultural country, we cannot pride our selves on a lack of prejudice , because Canadians tend to turn a very blind eye to very blatant examples of prejudice that have existed in this society since its formation. • (1 530) One does not ha ve to ask the aborigi nal memb ers of this Legislature if their people have experienced prejudice.

They were our first people and we talk about them with that kind of respect, but we do not treat them with that kind of respect, and they have spent ge nerations and ge nerations in this country subjec t to prejud ice, prejudice on the basis of the fact they were our first peoples. We know that there has been prejudice in this land on the basis of re ligion, we know ther e has been prejudice in this land on the basis of ethnicity and we know there has been prejudice in this nation on the basis of colour.

I suspec t ther e are very few people in this Chamber who know that in the city in which I grew up we had segre gated schools until 19 54. You know, when we talk about segregation, we tend to think of it as a concept for South Africa or a concept for a state in the southern United States. We had prejudice in the Halifax school syste m in the form of segregation until 19 54. There were black schools and white schools. It was only in 19 54 that they were outlawed. There has been prejudice in this country with respect to people of colour for many gener ations, but it is no t jus t with respec t to colou r.

Francophones in the province of Manitoba can remem ber very vividly when they atte nded schools in this pro vince, and when they learned that the super intendent of schools was at the railway station they all quickly took their Fre nch textbooks and they hid them and they brou ght ou t their English textbooks.

So when the super intendent had made the walk from the train station to the classroom, miraculously the classes were then in English, but, of course, they had been of regular nature conducted in Fre nch, because we decided, in our lack of wisdom in 18 90, that we would disallow the use of French in this Chamber and then in 19 16 we would refuse to allow it in our school syste m. So our Francophone people can talk very personally, many of them , about the prejudice that they felt as they were being raised in this particular pro vince.

One does not ha ve to spea k to too many Chi nese people to have them talk about the Chinese head tax, that it was only immigrants who came from China that had to pay a particular head tax in order to enter Canada. Immigrants from France, immigrants from Britain, immigrants from Ireland , immigr ants from Spain or any other European country, they did not pay a head tax. You only paid a head tax if you came from China, so one can only assume that the reason for that head tax was because the Chi nese people had a diffe rent colour skin, a different slant to their eyes and a different quality to their hair.

We know that in World War I, not just foreign nationals were incarcerated , but Canadian citizens of Ukrainian and of German origin were put in jails, that we went to drastic changes for exam ple-silly ones in my opin ion-but we had to change areas like Kitchener and Waterloo. We know that in 19 40, when the St. Louis landed in Montreal, a ship full of Jewish people who were escaping from the concentration camps in Germany, we turned them back. We know that in 19 15 , when a shipload of Sikhs tried to land in Vancouver harbour, they were tur ned back. We kno w tha t Canadians of

5921 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 26, 1993 Japanese origin were interned, perhaps one of the greatest shames in the cou ntry's history. So prejudic e based on ethnicity and colour and religion and language is not new to Canada. It is very much a part of our history.

That is why the estab lishment of a Manitoba Intercultural Council was such exciting news , because the est ablishment of this council was to give advice to the minister, was to give the minister a first-hand ability to touch these people and their personal experiences, to learn on a first-hand basis of the experiences they had with respect to prejudice, whether it was prejudice in the workfor ce, whether it was prejudice in the schools, whether it was prejudice against our social syste m.

In whatever its dynamic, they were to learn first-hand, the government of the da y, from these people just what the experie nces were that they were having. I was amused when I read over the member for Wellington's (Ms. Barrett) speech on Friday. I almost had the sense that we were back in my home when my children were little, and we had what we called the not-me ghost. Not me, not me, I did not politicize anything. Well, the reality was they did politicize it, and they politicized it badly.

They politicized it in two major areas, not by the appointmen ts they made which were part of the act and which were reas onable. They politicized it by saying the minister of the NDP government had to appoint the chairperson and the minister of the NDP government had to hire the executive director. How better to politicize an organization that is supposed to offer you free advice than to say, well, we want to listen to your point of view, but we insist that we appoint the chairperson and we insist that we hire the executive dire ctor. If you want to keep an organization independent, you do not do it that way.

So the politicization of this new wonderful act that should have been a bellwether of good news began with the very est ablishment of the act itself in 19 83, but this new gove rnment elec ted in 19 88 had an opp ortun ity to change that. They had an opportunity to depoliticize and to give back to MIC the abi!ity to appoint their own chairperson and to hire their own executive director, but what did they do? Oh, no, they decided they would politicize it even further, and now they are over there saying, not me, too, so the not-me ghost is once more alive and well in the Chamber.

The first thing they did was, of course, to take the funding from MIC. What was the basis for that wonderful decision? Well, the decision, of course, was based on an Auditor's Re port that said, well, they were not handling their finances very well. Well, you know, if we listened to the Auditor's Report, we would watch gov ernment tumble time after time after time, because year after year after year, auditors at the federal level and provincial levels across this nation keep sa ying, the gov ernment is not doing very well and these are all the recom mendations I have.

So if we used Auditors ' Reports as the basis of remo ving power, there would not be a govern ment, no matter what its political stripe, in power today. All of them would be gone. So the reality of using an Auditor's Report to take away entire funding was just, quite frankly, a bit of facetiousness. If you would really and genuinely want to tighten up the funding of MIC, then by all means do so, tighten up the funding. Make sure that the accou nting principles used are far more valid, far more reasonable, far mo re logical. Had that been done, then funding could have remained with MIC.

But there began the slippery slope until we have before us

an act today which wou ld like to do away with the Manit oba Inter cu ltural Council in its en tirety . That, Mr. Speaker, I would say to you, is a very backward ste p. What we have replaced it with, of course, is a Multicultur al Gr ants Advisory Cou ncil and a Multicu lturalism Secr etariat, and we have two represent atives of those groups upstairs in the gallery listening with bated breath obviously to the opposition commen ts about the two organizations.

The trag ed y with respect to both of those orga nizati ons is that one is unnecessary, the Multicultural Grants Advisory Commi ttee, because MIC could have been doing the work. The second, the multicultural secretariat, has been, in fact, politicized by the present govern ment. None of the positions at the top were ever open to civil service competition.

I have said in this House before, and I will say it again, because the person in charge of the Secretariat is in the gallery, and that is, if we had had an open competition, he would have, in all likelihood, won it because he had the qualifications to be the person who got the job. But

July 26, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5922 the very fact that we did not do that politicized it, and that is the weakness. *

(11540) If the gover nment had had the courage of its convictions and had opened it for competition, I find it difficult to think they may have gotte n anybody better qualified than David Langtry, but they have, un1'ortunately, emasculated his role because they polliticized it. So he has been unable to be the quality of the person that he could have been be(:ause of the ema sculation process that went on. That is a tragedy, and that is what has made the secretariat not have the kind of reputation that it sh,ould have in the Province of Manitoba as a nonpolitical arm of gove rnment.

Ins tead, it has only the reputation of being an extr emely political arrn of govern ment, and that is not a good thing. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is a very sad day when we as a group of legislators have before us a Manitoba Intercultural Council which is going to be ca:st on the winds. The minister, in essence, brought into being a Manitoba intercultural act. What better place for a council than to be found in that act? The act itself is suppo sed to provide for some of the programs to do away with racism, to do with a better under standing of one another within our complex society.

And, yes, the minister and other ministers who come after her should have the advice of those people who live within those commu nities, advice fre ely given with no political linkages so that they can speak their minds and that they can speak as el<>quently as it is possible to speak about those probl ems which they are facing in day-to-day Manitoba society , and their positive suggestions about how their problems can be addressed. Mr. Speaker, I regret that we have this act before us.

I have no choice but to vote against the act be,cause of what they are doing to it, that there will be, no council with any reporting responsibilities to th'e Province of Manitoba, that the minister and subsequen t ministers, at least until such time as a ne'w act can be passed, will find themselves unable to get that independent advice they so desperately ne,ed. Mr. Speaker, I will concl ude my remarks by saying that the Liberal Party will vote against this ac:t.

We will vote against it, because what we have watched since 19 83 no w for 11 ye ars is politi ciza ti on from the NDP coupled with politiciz ation by the Conser vative Party. As a result, the comm unities that desperately need to have their voice heard are not being heard. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is the Hous e ready for the ques tion? Committee Changes Mr. Speaker: Just to acc ommod ate the House, prior to putting the question, I will recognize the honour able me mber for Gimli who will have a comm ittee change. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Pallister), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the memb er for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummi ngs); the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) for the memb er for Springfield (Mr. Findlay); and the memb er for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). I move, seconded by the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reim er) , that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts be amended as follows: the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the memb er for As sin iboia

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-109a
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