Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Oral Questions — 18 December 2002 (44th General Assembly, 4th Session, Vol. XLIV No. 48)
2002-12-18
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
December 18, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 48
The House met at 2:00 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise on a question of privilege today having to do with the comments and
contents of the Auditor General's report, which reports on this government's
failure to report to this House of Assembly and provide annual reports for
departments and agencies of the Crown.
Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General, in his report, has specifically said,
"In order for the Members of the House of Assembly to discharge their
responsibility in assessing government's performance, government has to
provide them with information that can be used for that purpose. The information
should show how much funding was provided by the Legislature, what was planned
to be accomplished with this funding, how much of the funding was actually spent
and what was actually accomplished. This information should be provided for each
government department and Crown agency and tabled in the House of
Assembly."
He refers to the democratic system of government that we have, where the
Legislature provides the government with the responsibility to govern and manage
public resources, and government must be accountable to the House of Assembly
for its performance.
What has happened, Mr. Speaker, is that has broken down. We have a situation
in this Province where we have, with the exception of the Public Service
Commission, no government departments and only nine of eighty-three Crown
agencies prepared and tabled annual reports for 2001 in the House of Assembly.
Only three of forty-five Crown agencies which received government funding
totalling $1.6 billion tabled reports in the House of Assembly for 2001.
Mr. Speaker, this is a breach of privilege of members of the House in
essentially interfering with the ability of members of the House to do their
duty. I refer you to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6 th
Edition, 92 where it says, "A valid claim of privilege in respect to
interference with a Member must relate to the Member's parliamentary duties
and not to the work the Member does in relation to that Member's
constituency." So it is a fundamental role of the Members of the House of
Assembly to hold the government accountable for what they do. If we are not
informed on a regular basis as to what government is doing with respect to its
departments, with respect to its government agencies, then we are unable to do
our job.
On page 25, 97 of Beauchesne, the Speaker in the House of Commons
made a ruling on whether or not the government was required to answer written or
oral questions. The Speaker said, "While it is correct to say that the
government is not required by our rules to answer written or oral question, it
would be bold to suggest that no circumstances could ever exist for a prima
facie question of privilege to be made where there was a deliberate attempt
to deny answers to an Hon. Member, if it could be shown that such action
amounted to improper interference with the Hon. Member's parliamentary
work."
Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about a simple refusal to answer a question,
or not answering a particular question on a particular day. What we are
referring to here, and the Auditor General has pointed out, we have a wholesale
refusal by inaction of the government to make itself accountable to the
Legislature by not providing annual reports from departments, by not requiring
Crown agencies and departments - Crown agencies who are receiving money from
this Legislature - to provide reports to this House, and not allowing me and
other Members of the House of Assembly to do their parliamentary job, which
includes holding the government accountable for the expenditure of public money
for the activities of government and for all of the matters that are given to
it.
In fact, the Auditor General also points out that this is the only
jurisdiction in Canada where there is no form of any legislative requirement
requiring departments and Crown agencies to table some form of annual report on
their operations.
So it is all the more important, Mr. Speaker, where there is no legislative
requirement, that the privileges of members and the role of members be acted
upon by government by insisting and ensuring that members have access to
information so that they can ask the questions, so they can hold the government
accountable. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question of privilege, and
ask you to so rule.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. E. BYRNE: To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.
I rise to support the point of privilege raised by the Member for Signal
Hill-Quidi Vidi. It is the exact point that we made, or partially the point that
we made, last week, on Tuesday, December 10. The difference today, Mr. Speaker,
is that we had yesterday tabled in the House the Auditor General's report
which validates, I believe, and vindicates the assumptions that we talked about.
First of all, just to add, I think, and hopefully enhance what the member has
said, I would like to site Maingot, a
section on page 189, where he talks about
alleged acts of interfering with members's duties. It says, "ALLEGED ACTS
MUST RELATE TO A MEMBER'S PARLIAMENTARY WORK". Clearly the nonconformance
of providing not only important information but essential information to this
House for members to do their parliamentary work was denied to each and every
member of this House.
He said, "WORDS OR ACTS MUST AMOUNT TO CONTEMPT". We believe, Mr.
Speaker, as the member has just pointed out, that, based upon the information
tabled in the Auditor General's report, that the circumvention of this place
and the circumvention of not providing the necessary and essential information
to members in this House does, in fact, hold this very place in contempt.
He goes onto say, "But it is because of its nature that a valid question
of privilege arises only infrequently. There must be some act that improperly
interferes with the member's rights...". We believe, in this case, as the
Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi has point out, that our rights have indeed
been interfered with.
It says, "The interference, however, must not only obstruct the member
in his capacity as a member, it must obstruct or allege to obstruct the member
in his parliamentary work." Any unbiased reading of the Auditor General's
work clearly demonstrates that not only our work as a member but our sworn
obligation to do what is necessary within Parliament was also interfered with
and circumvented.
I rise today to support the point of privilege raised by the Member for
Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, let me say from the outset that I do not consider
this to be a point of privilege, and I want to make the case to Your Honour. It
is a matter of the hon. members opposite grandstanding and trying to make
something out of the Auditor General's report.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. LUSH: First of all, Mr. Speaker, there is no legislative requirement
that the departments and agencies referred to report to the House. Therefore, if
there is no legislative requirement, how can members say that it is affecting
their duties when there is no legislative requirement? They can ask that there
be legislative requirement. They can ask that. They can promote that and
encourage that, but they cannot call it a point of privilege because it does not
exist. If the legislative framework were there and government were not following
that, they were not following their own laws, not even that would be a point of
privilege because a matter of law, as I pointed out some days ago, is for the
courts to decide and not Mr. Speaker.
What we are involved with today is an issue for Mr. Speaker and, in order to
decide on this, Mr. Speaker has to decide that this is a prima facie case and
that it is brought to the House at its earliest time.
Mr .Speaker, I would suggest to you that this has been going on in this
Province ever since we have had Responsible Government, that these Crown
agencies have not been obligated, by law, to report to this House. If we were
breaking our own laws, it would be a case before the courts, but we are not even
breaking them. It is not to that point, because we do not have the law. The hon.
gentleman could ask that we have the law, but in the absence of the law, Mr.
Speaker, this Point of Privilege amounts to nothing other than grandstanding by
people opposite.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair will take the point raised by the hon. Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi under advisement.
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
On December 6, Mr. David Smallwood, President of the Corner Brook Forest
Capital Committee, and Corner Brook Mayor, Priscilla Boutcher, presented
Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, with a symbolic Christmas Tree and a piece
of Western Newfoundland artwork by Summerside's Niki Tobin, to commemorate
Corner Brook's year long reign as Forestry Capital of Canada.
As members are aware, Corner Brook was designated the 2003 Forestry Capital
of Canada by the Canadian Forestry Association, a designation that recognizes a
community which is noteworthy because of its commitment to and its dependence on
its forest resources.
The Christmas Tree presentation is symbolic in nature and represents the
final official duty of the Corner Brook Forest Capital Committee before it
passes over its title to Gatineau, Quebec, the 2004 Forest Capital of Canada.
Throughout the year, the Forest Capital Committee hosted a multiplicity of
events including the Canadian Lumberjack Challenge at Marble Mountain and work
on its legacy project which entails the development of outdoor classrooms at
three Corner Brook schools.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this hon. House to join with me in
congratulating the Corner Brook Forest Capital Committee on its fine work and
for having brought distinction to the City of Corner Brook.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise in this hon. House today to welcome three national judges of the
Winter Lights Celebrations to the Bay Roberts region of the Province.
Bay Roberts has entered the National Illumination competition this year. The
competition, with a committee based in Ottawa, encourages Canadian communities
of all sizes to celebrate the holiday season with lights, and at the same time
create a tourist attraction.
Mr. Speaker, residents, businesses, schools and organizations in the area are
asked to make that extra effort to have their properties decorated for the town's
fifth annual lights festival.
Bay Roberts is nominated in the category between a 5,000 to 10,000
population, with the only other provincial nominee in this category being
Labrador City.
Mr. Speaker, the competition not only judges communities on their lights, but
also considers a number of Christmas activities that are taking place in the
community. Their evaluation includes consideration of design, originality,
impact and scope.
Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all members of this House, I want to welcome those
judges and to say to the people in that community, tonight is the night the
judging is being done and I hope Bay Roberts will do extremely well in this
competition.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, if I could have leave to give a statement
for my district?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity.
Mr. Speaker, on Friday past I had the opportunity, along with the Minister of
Education, to attend the re-dedication of two schools in my district. Appalachia
High School in St. George's has had a $4 million redevelopment and it is now a
modern high school facility. Special thanks to the parents committee who worked
with the school board to make these improvements a reality.
Mr. Speaker, the school also dedicated the new gym in the name of the late
David Russell, who contributed much to Stephenville Crossing. Also, the new
library was named after the late Julia Swyer, who contributed tirelessly to the
youth of St. George's and region.
Mr. Speaker, later in the afternoon, we attended the ceremony at Belanger
Memorial K-12, in the Codroy Valley. This $3 million plus investment could not
have happened without the parents committee and teachers. A room was dedicated
to the late Minnie White, who contributed greatly to music in the Codroy Valley
and throughout the Province. Also, a room was dedicated in the memory of the
late Joe McIsaac, a former School Board Superintendent in the region who
contributed greatly to the Codroy Valley.
Mr. Speaker, these two schools are now better equipped to serve our youth in
the District of St. George's-Stephenville East and I thank the Minister of
Education for her ongoing efforts to better education.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House of Assembly of an
exciting new partnership between the Department of Education and the
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.
A Memorandum of Understanding has been signed between the department's
Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation and the NLTA's Virtual Teachers'
Centre. This MOU establishes an effective collaborative process for offering
on-line professional development to teachers throughout Newfoundland and
Labrador. The MOU will allow the Department of Education and the NLTA to
integrate the work they would otherwise do separately and ensure that on-line
professional development is developed and delivered in a co-ordinated manner.
Once the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation and the Virtual Teachers'
Centre were established, it was evident there could be some overlap in the
services that each of these agencies provided. We decided together that they
would focus on different, but complementary, aspects of professional
development. The mandate of the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation is
to focus on professional development related to the Department of Education's
curriculum implementation and assessment. The Virtual Teachers' Centre
addresses the broader spectrum of teachers' professional needs. Through the
partnership we are announcing today, we will enhance and co-ordinate our efforts
to ensure the professional development needs of our teachers are met.
In order to further facilitate cooperation between the Department of
Education and the NLTA, we have agreed to cost-share the services of a
coordinator who is responsible for the development and delivery of on-line
programs and services. I am pleased to announce that Alex Hickey, coordinator of
the Virtual Teachers' Centre will now work with the Centre for Distance
Learning and Innovation to co-ordinate all on-line K-12 professional development
initiatives. Mr. Hickey is with us today in the gallery and is joined by Mr.
Winston Carter, president of the NLTA, and Mr. Ed Hancock, the NLTA's
executive director.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: Also with us today are Dr. Harold Press, deputy minister of the
Department of Education, and Mr. Gerald Galway, assistant deputy minister, who
oversees the operation of CDLI.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS FOOTE: I add that Mr. Hickey's appointment is, according to the
Canadian Teachers' Federation, the first time anywhere in this country that a
government has partnered with a teachers' association to work together on
teacher professional development to such an extent. I am pleased we are involved
in developing this ground-breaking partnership which shows once again that
Newfoundland and Labrador is leading the way in the development of creative
initiatives to improve learning.
Mr. Speaker, this arrangement will not impact the traditional methods of
professional development delivery. The Department of Education will continue to
conduct intensive in-servicing as required to ensure our teachers are introduced
to new curriculum and other advancements in education.
The department has embarked on several initiatives to improve professional
development for teachers including: An annual investment of $4.4 million on
professional development; the addition of three school days for teacher
in-service; and, the establishment of a Professional Development Alliance with
representatives from school boards, the NLTA, Memorial University and the
Department of Education.
As many of you have heard me say, we have one of the most highly-qualified
teaching forces in the country. This partnership ensures we will continue to
offer our students access to good teachers who are role models, motivators and
mentors.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I certainly would like to thank the minister for an advance copy of her
statement.
Certainly, I stand, and I am sure I speak for all members on this side of the
House, in saying that we, too, are pleased that the department and the
Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association are into a partnership on this
particular item. I say to the minister, that when teachers partner with anyone,
I am very, very encouraged because, I say, Mr. Speaker, when teachers are at
professional development they will do it, they will do it right, and the job
will be done.
With regard to the Virtual Teachers' Centre, for years now that has been up
and running and, certainly, it is a practical site. It is a site for teachers
and by teachers. I certainly would have to compliment Mr. Hickey for the
tremendous job that he has done in bringing this to the teachers of this
Province. To see him appointed as sort of a go-between or coordinator, I am
very, very encouraged and would, certainly, offer my congratulations to him and,
of course, to the NLTA for bringing this about.
Again, I cannot speak enough about professional development, and I would
certainly join with the minister in saying that this is a very, very positive
development.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We certainly feel that this is a positive development for the notion and the
availability of teacher development in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador. Professional development for teachers is very important, particularly
where we have so many advances in curriculum and interest amongst teachers to be
up-to-date with the very latest of information. The fact that they were able to
co-ordinate this with the Virtual Teachers' Centre is a very positive thing,
and I want to congratulate those who helped to make it possible.
I would say it is good to see the NLTA and the government working together
and being cooperative. I do not know why that was, but when the Premier was
President of the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association it wasn't
such a happy relationship for some reason or other. Maybe things have changed
and the government and the NLTA are working together, at least on this project,
and that is certainly a good thing.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr .Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are for the Premier.
Mr. Speaker, this year's Auditor General's report can only be described
as a scathing review of a government that is clearly out of control. The themes
that have emerged this year are not new but are recurrent. Year after year,
report after report, it talks of a government that breaks the law and withholds
information, but also reveals that numerous opportunities exist for political
favouritism.
Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General specifically says that there is "...a
significant lack of information which is required by the Members of the House of
Assembly in order to assess Government's actual performance...". The
previous Auditor General says that they are the least accountable government in
the country.
Mr. Speaker, with such comments, would the Premier explain -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. WILLIAMS: These are not funny matters.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, with such comments, would the Premier explain
how he can look the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in the eyes and
sincerely say, that you are truly the most open, accountable and transparent
government since Confederation?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We say that with pride, because it happens to be the truth, Mr. Speaker.
The fact of the matter is, again it is unfortunate that the Leader of the
Opposition continues to use a tactic by using words that are other than those
used by the Auditor General. The Auditor General does not use language
suggesting that anybody is breaking the law. That language has never been in an
Auditor General's report. As a matter of fact, I challenge members of the
media, members of the House of Assembly, anybody, to find an Auditor General's
report, since Confederation, that did not find at least one instance where a
government contravened the legislation, contravened one of the acts sometime
during the year. There are millions of financial transactions made in a year and
not every single one of them is done 100 per cent in compliance with the
legislation, but there is no breaking of the law and there has not been in this
instance. It is unfortunate that the editorializing, even of a headline in the
paper today, picked up the language of the Opposition because that is not the
language of the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker.
I challenge anyone to suggest that it is because it is not and nothing could
be further from the truth.
The most telling thing, Mr. Speaker, is in the
preamble that the Leader of
the Opposition used himself. He said that this has happened year after year
after year. The language has been the same in the 1950s, in the 1960s, and in
the 1970s, when the Tories were the government with Premiers Moores and Peckford;
and more damning language then, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, than anything that
is in a report today. This is far from a scathing report. We appreciate and
respect the job and the work of the Auditor General. We -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: - cooperate with the Auditor General and we will continue
to do so, Mr. Speaker, out of respect for that Officer of the House of Assembly.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Lets deal with some specifics, Premier. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General
authority. In fact, four agencies borrowed $43.8 million when they clearly did
not have the authority to do so. They contravened the Financial Administration
Act, they violated the Financial Administration Act,. they broke the law.
Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain, and please tell the people, if his
Cabinet was aware that four government agencies were breaking the law by
borrowing $43.8 million without legislative authority? Mr. Speaker, I do not
need to point out that the taxpayers will have to pay this money back.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is interesting to note, just for the political commentary that the Leader
of the Opposition might be interested in, that the kind of language he used in
his
preamble, with respect to the scathing report and so on, was on the
broadcast news last night, as well, attributed to Premier Lord's Conservative
Government in New Brunswick. So, Mr. Speaker, it is not something odd and
strange. As a matter of fact, Premier Lord was here, I believe, on a fundraising
mission with the members opposite just a while ago.
Mr. Speaker, the specific that is mentioned in this question with respect to
the four Crown agencies: The explanation, Mr. Speaker, has been given to the
Auditor General because we respect and appreciate the work of the Auditor
General on behalf of all of us in this Legislature. We cooperate with the
Auditor General. It has been pointed out to the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker,
that contrary to his view, the four agencies that he referred to in his report
are all constituted in their own legal right under the Corporations Act. They
borrowed on their own right, which they have a right to do under the Law of
Newfoundland and Labrador, and, in fact, the people of the Province are
responsible because the government guaranteed their borrowing and tabled the
guarantees in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: That has been explained to the Auditor General and it is
completely and exactly the opposite of what the Leader of the Opposition would
betray it to be.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states in his report and I
quote: As in other years, my office continues to identify instances where
government and its agencies contravened the Public Tender Act. He also
identified numerous concerns with the way that other contracts were awarded.
This act, Mr. Speaker, is intended to create a level playing field for companies
doing business with government, and not for those companies with strong Liberal
ties.
Mr. Speaker, would the Premier explain to the people of this Province why the
Minister of Environment ignored the very clear recommendations of a bid
evaluation committee not to award the tire recycling program to the eventual
winner, and despite specific written advice to the contrary from the chair of
that evaluation committee? Isn't that successful bidder the same person who
obtained the beverage container contract as well?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition thinks he has
something. Let me tell you, the Government Purchasing Agency ruled that the
tender should be awarded, and that is what this department did. As a matter of
fact, the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board expressed concerns - they were
addressed - but the tender itself, the Government Purchasing Agency approved and
indicated to our department we had to let the tender. We did, and, not only
that, that contract is working extremely well and is doing very well, contrary
to the wishes of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General's report specifically
stated that the recommendations were ignored. In fact, it is funny that the
minister did not mention that they were going to set up the processing in his
district, in Stephenville. He failed to mention that in the answer to the
question.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary now; I ask him to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, according to the Auditor General's report
the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board felt that the company, which was
eventually awarded a contract, did not have experience in tire recycling to
successfully execute that contract.
Mr. Speaker, would the Premier explain why the board was never given any
explanation by the minister as to why their serious concerns had not been
addressed; and, would he also confirm that, as a result of awarding this
contract, another interim contract was cancelled, resulting in a legal claim
against the government for $600,000 for loss of profit?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Multi-Material Stewardship Board is
responsible for administering contracts. The Public Tender Act is governed by
the Government Purchasing Agency. They are the ones who outlined to our
department the approval of this contract. That was communicated to the
Stewardship Board. Also, we have felt for some time a need to address the fact
of administrative problems at the Stewardship Board. That is why we have also
announced a chief operating officer, which we announced yesterday in this House
of Assembly. That is going to be addressed now for the coming year.
So, Mr. Speaker, despite the innuendo of the Leader of the Opposition about
some politics, let me tell you, in all my years in this House and in the
Cabinet, I will tell you this now: That contract was done properly. As a matter
of fact, the interim agreement that the Stewardship Board tried to enter into,
they did so without the authority of the government. That is why we have a new
chief officer to oversee the operations of the Stewardship Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the Premier or the minister would
like for me to talk about some violations of the Public Tender Act.
Mr. Speaker, under the beverage container contract program, there are four
contracted service areas: depots, transportation, processing, and information
systems. There were violations of the Public Tender Act in all four areas, and
in some there were multiple violations.
Mr. Speaker, would the Premier please tell the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador what gives him the right to break the laws of our Province, the laws
which he, as Premier, is placed in a position of trust to uphold? Is he above
the law, or are you just out of control, Premier?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Stewardship Board had extended two
contracts: one for beverage containers and one for transportation of beverage
containers. The reason they did that - we asked them to do that, they were
requested to do so - was because the Avalon Waste Management Committee brought
the report in this fall. The recommendation of the Chairman of the Avalon Waste
Management was to extend the contract so that, for waste management for the
coming two years, as we planned, waste management all over the Province, Mr.
Speaker, we are looking at the integration of the beverage container processing
to all the regional waste management authorities in the Province, which makes
sense, Mr. Speaker. That is why we have a chief officer appointed to review this
matter, and that is exactly what is occurring. As a matter of fact, the beverage
container processing is going to hit 70 per cent this Christmas, in the
processing side, one of the most successful processing programs in the country.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is interesting that the Premier will not answer a question that alleges
that he either broke the law or is out of control. He won't even stand up and
answer it. Imagine!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
In November, 1996, government established a Waste Management Trust Fund to
receive all excess monies from the beverage container contract program.
Guidelines for approving projects from this fund are outlined under the Waste
Management Act.
Mr. Speaker, would the Premier please explain why the minister ignores the
guidelines and recommendations of the board, and awards contracts from the trust
fund without providing documentation, without following assessment criteria,
without complying with the program guidelines, and without addressing the board's
concerns?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the approval of projects out of the Waste
Management Trust Fund is the responsibility of the Minister of Environment. The
minister and the MMSB have jointly established guidelines and criteria for
screening applications to the fund. This is for guidance only, and the actual
legislative authority for the minister is found in
section 10.4 of the waste
management regulations.
All approvals by the minister were done in accordance with the regulations,
taking into account the Stewardship Board's guidelines and government's
overall waste management objectives, and, Mr. Speaker, I will bring all of the
approvals right here to this House of Assembly. Not only that -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: There were four of them, Mr. Speaker. They are all
non-profit organizations.
Not only that, Mr. Speaker, unlike the Opposition, the contract that did get
awarded, the other earlier contract he was talking about in Stephenville, the
Opposition critic's only criticism when we announced the contract for tires
was: Why are they doing it in Stephenville?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, under the Waste Management Trust Fund, I guess, or more
appropriately named the wasteful mismanagement slush fund probably would be even
better, I would think, the minister appointed a special advisor at a cost of
$132,400. The salary was funded through the trust fund administered by the
Multi-Materials Stewardship Board; yet, the Auditor General says that the board
was not asked to assess the hiring, did not know the name of the person
employed, nor were they aware of the duties and responsibilities of that
particular person.
Mr. Speaker, could the Premier explain to the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador how a board, which is set up to administer a trust fund, would not even
know the name or duties of a person who is being paid $132,400 from that trust
fund?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the contract that was entered into is, a
special advisor who goes back - as a matter of fact, gives advice between the
department and the board. Again, we have just appointed a chief operating
officer to go in and ensure that everything is being done in the appropriate
manner, and we feel everything has been done, and we are looking forward to
moving on with waste management.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions today are to the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury
Board.
The common parliamentary means of providing spending authority to government
is through annual passing of Supply where members here in this House of Assembly
can vote and approve that spending.
Now there are two instances, Mr. Speaker, where government can spend public
money without prior debate and approval. That is through special warrants, and
in both cases the necessity must be urgent.
Since 1997, the Auditor General's office has indicated that they have
reported that, out of that time, special warrants amounted to $483.6 million -
almost $300 million, $299.7 million - spent in contravention of this act; in
other words, breaking the law of the Province.
This past fiscal year alone this government broke the law, according to the
Auditor General, to the tune of $33.1 million. I want to ask: In light of year
after year, after repeated warnings from the Auditor General and from the
Opposition here, why is this minister and the government still breaking the law?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
This government is not breaking the law. We have addressed this issue here in
this House over the past week or so in debate on numerous occasions. There is
always room for a difference of opinion as to what urgency means. We have a
definition, as government, based on the circumstance at the time. The hon. the
member, yesterday, talked about urgency as being something like beauty, it is in
the eye of the beholder. I could refer to it and contextualize it a different
way and say this: That to a Floridian, the storm we had last night was the storm
of the century, but to us in Newfoundland it was just a regular occurrence in
winter. So, it is a matter of opinion.
With respect to the issue that the Auditor General raises, we recognize the
issue, we recognize what he has said. We take the view, because it is the
position on which we made the decision, that there was a sufficient degree of
urgent reason to issue those warrants at the time when we issued them. We make
decisions on behalf of the people of the Province because we are government and
we will be held accountable by the people of the Province for the decision we
have made in the democratic process.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Auditor General indicates that $4 million out of those warrants on
education was pertaining to the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment
Corporation. The department said it was done in the best interests of the public
and by availing of year-end flexibility. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor has often
cited that this flexibility allows government to manipulate and get whatever
desired result it wants. The Auditor General said the need was not urgent
because the Newfoundland and Labrador Investment Corporation had a line of
credit that was not fully used.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary and I ask him to get to his question.
MR. SULLIVAN: They had the cash flow at the time when they did it. It was
not urgent.
I ask the minister, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister rise and tell this House
the real reason for such blatant violation of the law?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I believe the hon. member, in part, answered his own question when he said
the Auditor General has often. The Auditor General has probably, for the past
fifty-odd years, taken issue with governments of the day issuing special
warrants at a particular point in time based on a particular set of rationale
that the government, at that point in time, may have used. Nothing different
happened last year. The only thing different that really has happened, Mr.
Speaker, I believe, over the last number of years with respect to the issuance
of special warrants, is that this government, since 1989 when this party formed
government, have probably reduced the use of special warrants by about 90 per
cent over its previously seventeen-year historical use. What has happened with
respect to special warrants over the last year and over the life of this
government is that we have been conscious of the real reason why they should be
used -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.
MR. MATTHEWS: - and we have consistently reduced the usage of these
special warrants. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with them. I
dare say we will continue to use them in the future, and future governments will
to the extent that they think is necessary.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to take his seat.
MR. MATTHEWS: We respect the special warrant procedures and we use them
as prudently as we can.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states again this year, that the Province
did not comply with the Public Tender Act in awarding a $17.8 million contract
for the Strait of Bell Isle ferry service and that the contract was awarded to a
bidder who did not comply with the tender specifications.
Why did the government break the Public Tendering Act in awarding this
contract? Was it to do a favour for a well-known Liberal supporter who wanted to
get this contract?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is very, very clear that there was no contravention of the Public Tender
Act. Do you want me to talk about telephone contract? I could answer it if I get
to talking about the telephone contract.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. BARRETT: The hon. member should keep quiet. The hon. member should
listen to the answer to the question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. BARRETT: There was no contravention of the Public Tender Act. The
tender was awarded on condition that the boat be able to dock. I am happy to
report to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, in fact this boat has docked
3,000 times since that time.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will say to the minister, maybe he should have a discussion with the
Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General states that in 2002 the
department paid over $5.5 million to the operator of the Apollo and had
no means of ensuring that all the services paid for were provided.
Mr. Speaker, how does the minister justify passing out $5.5 million without
bothering to check, and cannot check, whether or not the Province received the
services it paid for?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, the service on the Strait of Bell Isle- and I
wish that the hon. member would check with the people in Labrador. The money
that was spent on that particular ferry service was the best money that was ever
spent in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Our statistics are way up.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: It is the best service that was ever provided to the people
of Labrador and this government is proud to be part of that ferry service to the
people of Labrador.
The hon. member attended the transportation Combined Councils meeting in
Labrador. Do you know what they did? The two or three members of the Opposition
who were down there would not even stay for the meeting, to hear about the
transportation concerns of Labrador. They walked away from the meeting, because
our record on transportation in Labrador is the best since Confederation, and I
am proud to be the minister, to be a part of it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, final supplementary.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, again the minister does not answer the question and misses the
point completely.
Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18-
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18,000 on May 12, 2000 to this
contractor for services not received?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, why did government pay $18,000 on May 12, 2000
to this contractor for services not received, and how much of this $5.5 million
did government pay out that they never got the services for? You do not have any
way of finding it out.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BARRETT: There was one day in May when the boat did not operate. As
part of the contract, the contractor wasn't to be paid. The money was
refunded.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair is not going to tolerate this kind of interruption during Question
Period. If members do not come to their senses, the Chair will leave this
Chamber and recess it until members can proceed in an orderly fashion with the
Question Period.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question today, Mr. Speaker, is for the Premier, concerning an urgent
problem affecting people in Labrador.
I want to say to the Premier, this morning I spent two or three hours at the
airport with constituents from Labrador West and some passengers from Goose Bay
area, as well, who were booked on the Air Nova flight at 10:15 to fly to
Labrador. The flight was cancelled and passengers were told that they would not
be able to be re-booked until December 24; a ridiculous situation, I would
suggest, that would not happen anywhere else in this country where people would
be cancelled a flight and booked six days later, on Christmas Eve.
Does the Premier agree that this is a deplorable situation and will he use
his office, as Premier, to ensure that Air Nova puts on an extra
section to
Wabush and Goose Bay to have the passengers go home in a timely fashion rather
than be stranded, waiting for a flight for six days?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LUSH: As most hon. members know, I have been Chair of the Air Policy
Committee set up primarily as a result of actions by Air Canada to reduce its
services here in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The incident
described by the hon. member does not surprise me. It shocks me, Mr. Speaker, to
know that a national company, like Air Canada, will, again, demonstrate its
insensitivity and its callous action towards the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador. I can assure the hon. member that we will do everything in our power
to see that this situation is redressed, in the manner that he has described, as
quickly as possible.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to say to the minister, that these reservations the people were
supposed to traveling on today have been booked weeks and months in advance. I
am going back to the airport, as soon as Question Period is over, to be with
them and try to make arrangements. I would ask the minister, in his position as
chair of the Cabinet committee on transportation, will he not go to the airport
as well and get to the highest officials possible and insist that they correct
this situation immediately?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. LUSH: I tell the hon. member, I am not sure that I can accommodate
that request, in view of the business that follows after the House, but if it
can be done, if there is some arrangement that we could make, I certainly have
no objection in accompanying the hon. member and doing everything we can, as a
government, to help resolve this situation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.
MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to raise a point of order as a result of
Question Period. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has, for two days,
following now, been asking questions related to a specific portfolio, but
addressing the questions to the Premier. That, in itself, is not out of order,
but it is the convoluted approach by the Leader of the Opposition to give a
thwarted perception that the Premier is not answering the questions that he is
asking.
Mr. Speaker, I have been in this House a long time, and generally when a
member - and many times a member will address the question to the Premier, as
did the previous member, speaking on behalf of his constituents from Labrador,
addressed the Premier, but I answered the question, and in his next question he
addressed me, knowing that I was the one answering the questions. That is
normally the way it is done in the House. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition,
as I have said - to try and create a false perception that he is addressing
questions to the Premier and he is not responding.
Mr. Speaker, we have a team approach on this side, and when questions are
addressed they are answered by the appropriate minister. Yesterday, the
questions were to the Department of Justice, and that is who answered the
questions. Today, the questions asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition
related to environment, and that is who answered the questions.
Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition actually made reference to it, that
he was asking the Premier the questions and he was not answering, which is the
Premier's right.
Mr. Speaker, I quote for your information, page 123 of Beauchesne ,
418: The Speaker has stated, "Hon. Members may not realize it but
questions are actually put to the Government. The Government decides who will
answer."
The rules are pretty simple in this House. You do not have to take a course
in legal matters to be able to ask questions in this House. If we did, many of
us would not be able to ask the questions. They are simple, straightforward
rules, and I ask the Leader of the Opposition to get familiar with them.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The member says he has been around a long time. I have been here ten years.
The fact of the matter is, Question Period is designed so that the Leader of the
Opposition or any other member decides who they are going to ask. I recall, for
example, Mr. Speaker, when the Member for Bonavista South was the critic for
social services, when the Government House Leader was in social services, when
he introduced the common term, welfare cops. He asked a question. When the
member rose, the then Premier said: I have this Tom, and sat him down.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I also remember, I also recall, in my ten
years here - and I am sure the Government House Leader would too - when the
Premier was the Minister of Mines and Energy, and I was the Leader of the
Opposition asking him questions, when then Premier Brian Tobin said: Roger, I
have this.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, this is a useless
point of order. The Leader of the Opposition has every right to ask anybody a
question, and you have every right to answer who you may wish to answer, but
your point of order is absolutely no point of order whatsoever, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I not so sure that it is a point of order that the hon. member has raised. I
think he is just clarifying what the practice has been in this House. In other
jurisdictions as well, members of the Opposition may direct questions to
government but it is entirely up to the government who may answer that question.
Members, if they direct questions, must direct them to ministers who are
responsible for a given portfolio and cannot expect members of a different
portfolio to respond to questions of a nature that is not directed to the
particular ministry that they are responsible for.
I think what the hon. member has done has clarified that point, but really it
is not a point of order. It is a point of clarifying what the procedure has
been.
Orders of the Day
Private Members' Day
MR. SPEAKER: It being Wednesday, it is Private Members' Day.
The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I think, just for the record, I will deal with the motion at
hand today, it being Private Members' Day. Of course, it concerns the ferry
service that Marine Atlantic provides into this Province. The most important
part of the resolution says:
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House of Assembly calls on the Federal
Government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the additional subsidy necessary
to provide a quality and affordable ferry service to this Province.
Mr. Speaker, the biggest regret today is the fact that someone actually has
to stand in this Legislature to discuss the increases in ferry rates coming into
Newfoundland and Labrador. It is regretful that someone has to stand here, once
again, and try to explain to Ottawa that the link between Port aux Basques and
North Sidney, and indeed between Argentia and North Sidney, happens to be our
Trans-Canada Highway.
It is regretful that Ottawa cannot seem to understand that, by increasing the
rates for passengers to and from this Province, it is a deterrent to increasing
the tourism industry in this Province and indeed the well-being of the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
We have seen an industry that grew from the 1980s, under the direction of
some very good people in those days, an industry that was in the middle of $200
million a year. We saw it grow between 1982-1983 into 1994 to a $400 million
industry. Today, that industry is burgeoning upon $900 million a year, and yet
Ottawa has decided one more time to take a few more pennies, a few more dollars,
out of every man, woman and child who wishes to come to see our Province.
The sad part about it is that Ottawa refuses to get it. They refuse to get it
right. They refuse to listen to the needs of the industry - industries such as
Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, who have been waging this fight with
Marine Atlantic and Ottawa for twenty years or more. They refuse to listen to
the Truckers Association, people like Gerry Dowden, people like Greer Hunt, who
have been fighting for the last ten years to bring the rates to a reasonable
level so as to provide service not only to Newfoundland and Labrador but provide
the people of this Province with lower prices on commodities. They refuse to get
it right.
I can tell you that in 1993, when I was minister, I attempted to take the
federal government to court. I was prepared to take them to court and asked the
Department of Justice at the time, could it be possible? They said to me: Well,
it might be possible, but it would be a journey that we probably would not win.
Rather than look at the wrath that may have been thrown upon the Province at
that point in time, we decided to pursue a different route, and the route at
that time was negotiation.
The sad part about the efforts that are taking place today in terms of
wanting to increase the rates to offset the subsidy has no bearing on the
individuals who are today running Marine Atlantic. I have to give - and I
believe anyone in Newfoundland and Labrador would give - full marks to Sid Hynes
and his team. They have taken great responsibility in terms of trying to turn
around the service of that industry, to streamlining the actual runs that take
place between the Island and North Sydney to meet the needs of the traveller,
not the needs of the individuals who are working in the ferry service. They have
worked hard to bring a quality of service to a standard that is acceptable to
the people of this Province, and indeed to the tourists who come to this
Province. My hat is tipped to them. My congratulations are extended to them, but
they are not the ones who decide what the subsidy will be each year. That
decision is being made in Ottawa. That decision is being made today by
Collenette who, for some reason or another, believes that we are in some part, a
backward part, maybe even a Third World, in his mind. Maybe he believes that we
are out there somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, a safe haven, as he
said one time, for planes to come to, for planes to land, so they would not
affect people in Central Ontario, a place during September 11, where it was
safer to have a plane blow up in Newfoundland than it was at Toronto Pearson
Airport. This is the same man who said, look after the individuals when they
arrive, and some year-and-a-half later has still refused to pay the $2 million
bill that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians put up to look after the tens of
thousands of people who came here.
Now, one more time, it is reach into the pockets, not just of Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians, but reach into the pockets of people who have heard about this
Province, who have heard about the goodwill that this Province has shown to
those many thousands who were here during the September 11 crisis. We have
received millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of free promotion,
of free advertising, at major networks around the world explaining what
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were willing to do at that time. Their response
to us is: One more time, jack it to them, give it to them, increase the rates,
make it hurt a little more, make sure that someone will stay in Nova Scotia
rather than come here. That is just not acceptable anymore.
It was only a few years ago that this same Marine Atlantic gave back some $15
million or $18 million of subsidy that they did not require, gave it back rather
than allowing it to stay there to meet a rainy day need as this is.
MR. MANNING: You need Paul Martin to (inaudible).
MR. WALSH: I guess what I have to do is probably try to answer a question
being asked of me by the member for St. Mary's, who comes from the tourism
industry, but, based on the comments being made, would probably rather see the
tourism industry suffer than hear me continue my debate. I want him to
participate, I want him to support this, and some future government we will deal
with, and we may get a much better response from some future government than we
are today. As a matter of fact -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.
MR. WALSH: As a matter of fact, I have a strong degree of confidence that
a future leader of a federal government will be much kinder to this Province,
will be much more generous to this Province, will be willing to listen and meet
the needs of this Province, much more than they are being met now.
Where do we do from here? Are we asking for anything different than being
given to other parts of Canada? No, we are not. Are we asking for anything that
other provinces are expecting that is better than what we are getting? No. Look
at Prince Edward Island. That is the closest and easiest example for us to deal
with. We, in Newfoundland and Labrador, as a people, have always said that, one,
we are generous and, two, we want to be treated as equal. Prince Edward Island,
since the fixed link went in, are guaranteed a $42 million a year subsidy,
guaranteed year after year after year for the next thirty-five years, fixed at
$42 million. What are they looking for here? What are they offering Newfoundland
and Labrador? Thirty-three million dollars.
They are saying to Marine Atlantic officials, the capable people who are
there: Live within your budget. In order to live within the budget, meet the
needs, meet the growing transportation needs, meet the needs of the increasing
amount of passengers who are coming here, do it within budget, and, if you
cannot, find the money where you can. They are finding the money the only way
they can, by increasing rates.
I believe it is time for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and all
members of this hon. House, to stand together and to say to Ottawa, and, in
particular, the minister responsible: Treat us as equals, treat us as the
Canadians that we are, treat us as a proud people and not have us, year after
year, say to you in Ottawa, what about us? Be fair, be generous, in your
equality in dealings with provinces.
Mr. Speaker, there are a number of my colleagues who want to participate in
this debate this afternoon. All I ask for, and all I request of Ottawa, treat us
as equals. Stop, freeze, hold, prevent the rates that you are asking for going
in place on January 1. Put a hold on them until, if need be, a delegation from
this House has to meet with the federal minister to try to make him understand
how important this is to Newfoundland and Labrador, how important it is to our
tourism industry, whether it is on the Northern Peninsula, whether it is down
around Cape St. Mary's, whether it is here on the Avalon and, indeed, whether
it is in Labrador. Because more and more tourists are coming to this Province
and they are turning left at Deer Lake, finding their way to the Northern
Peninsula, finding their way across the Gulf, going up to Red Bay, and, I guess,
because of the new highways even going further into Labrador.
Mr. Speaker, throughout this afternoon I expect to hear ideas and concepts as
to how we can convince the people in Ottawa, whether they are cousins of mine or
not, how do we convince those in Ottawa to participate with this Province in
achieving our goals and our aspirations as to how we can go forward. Find a way,
in the many millions of dollars that Ottawa has at its disposal, to hold the
rates at what they are, and, if need be, to see those rates reduced? That is
what I ask of this House of Assembly this afternoon with this resolution and
that is what I ask from those who will participate in the debate.
Mr. Speaker, I will have an opportunity to close the debate in an hour or
two, but in the meantime, I wish to hear from my colleagues on the other side,
and indeed, those from this side of the Legislature, on this very important
issue that we need to deal with now as the rates are scheduled to go in place on
January 1.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
MADAM SPEAKER (Ms Hodder): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, I am pleased to stand in my place today and speak to this
Private Member's Resolution put in by the Member for Conception Bay East &
Bell Island. It is a fairly timely one, I might add, fairly short, concise and
to the point. I think, on this side of the House, we will certainly be
supporting it. How couldn't you? It is motherhood. With respect to that, I
think, Madam Speaker, that we need to understand what is going on in this
Province today with respect to the Gulf ferry system. To do that, let's look
at what was promised to us with respect to the Terms of Union in 1949 when we
joined Canada. It is quite clear, that this could be extended even further than
to talk about the cuts, which I will address in a minute, with respect to the
increases and how we would not like them to be enforced.
I would like to read a
section here with respect to the terms of union. It
says this, "Canada will maintain in accordance with the traffic offering a
freight and passenger steamship service between North Sidney and Port aux
Basques, which, on completion of a motor highway between Corner Brook and Port
aux Basques, will include suitable provisions for the carriage of motor
vehicles." If you read that and look at the intent, at the point in time
when this was put in place, and compare it to today, one could argue, Madam
Speaker, that we should not even be paying for the service on the ferry. I mean,
it is an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway and it should be the
responsibility of Canada and Ottawa to be paying that. It is clearly in this.
Now, the member, when he was up, made the case that the present
administration of Marine Atlantic has brought it to an acceptable level. I
disagree with that. There have been some improvements, Madam Speaker. It was
only yesterday, actually, I got a call from a trucker who had been on the other
side wanting to get to Newfoundland. He had been there, I think, for twenty-four
hours and they were not going to allow him to get on. They were putting the cars
on first. Anyway, they eventually allowed nine trucks on that boat. So, it is
not supplying the full service that is required by the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador. It is not giving the service to the truckers, which is what we
need for the industry, because it impacts. As we often said before, in this
House of Assembly, and most members would agree, the Gulf ferry system exists,
Marine Atlantic exists, because of Newfoundland and Labrador, but the Island of
Newfoundland.
There are so many things that we can talk about, I suppose, when we come to
the pros and the cons of Marine Atlantic and the service that it provides, but
now, just so the people would know - and I am not sure if everyone out there
knows. I do not think the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island
actually said what the increases are. They are this: A single passenger fare
ride is $1.50 to $25, a passenger vehicle ticket goes up $3 to $72.75, and the
tractor trailer rate increases $11.50 to $297.50. Now, Madam Speaker, these
rates have to be passed on to the consumer. It impacts our tourism industry. It
impacts everything that we buy that is trucked onto this Island. Fuel, food, all
the different types of merchandise that are sold in our stores, these rates
apply to and it impacts upon what we pay.
Now, just to go back to a short while ago, Madam Speaker, there were
increases less than a year ago made for this same service. If I can find them
here, I will tell you what they were. In January, 2002, the rates went up, Madam
Speaker, they went up from $1.50 to $23.50. Now that $23.50 has gone to $25 and
it became effective, as I said, February 1 of this year, less than a year ago.
The one way cost for a fourteen meter transport truck was $268 and now that has
gone up to $297.50. They are continually going up and it has to stop. It is
shameful, is basically what it is. It is shameful!
Now, just this past month, back in November, November 5, 2002, they had
hearings in Port aux Basque, the Royal Commission on the relationship between
Ottawa and Newfoundland. Some of the concerns that were brought up at that
meeting were as follows: One of the major concerns at that meeting was that high
ferry rates hinder business developments and tourism; what we have been saying
in this House of Assembly, what members on that side of the House have been
saying in this House of Assembly, for years now. Ottawa, as the Member for
Conception Bay East & Bell Island said, they are not listening. They do not
get the point.
Again, I want to go back to the fact that when we joined Canada in 1949, that
Gulf ferry system was in the Terms of Union. Why are we even paying? We can make
that argument: Why are we even paying for it? That is what Ottawa is there for.
That was one of the terms when we joined Confederation. That is one of the
reasons why, and it was a big price to pay. They have taken our fishery and used
it all over the world for bargaining chips for different countries. We have lost
all of our resources, basically. Now, over the past few years, they are cutting
back on the Canadian Health and Social Transfer payments from Ottawa to
Newfoundland, and they have a problem with us looking for a proper Trans-Canada
Highway system.
As the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs says - and equalization,
we have been cut back on that. They changed from a needs basis to a per capita
basis. We have to fight almost daily, monthly, for our basic rights for a proper
transportation system to link us with the other part of Canada - a part of a
Canada, a country, that we are supposed to be a part of. Sometimes you have to
wonder.
Another point that was brought up at the meeting on November 5 was, the
corporation's head office is not in Port aux Basques. Again, we have made
issue in this House of Assembly many times that the head office should be in
Newfoundland. As we said, Marine Atlantic exists because of Newfoundland. Only
recently we saw - and I complimented the Marine Atlantic board at the time -
only a couple of weeks ago we saw, I think, four more Newfoundlanders appointed
to the board. It was a good decision, and I applaud them for that.
AN HON. MEMBER: Five.
MR. J. BYRNE: Five. I stand corrected - five more.
I will not be satisfied, and I am sure members on that side of the House will
not be satisfied, and on this side, until we have the majority of the board of
directors being from Newfoundland, because they understand Newfoundland. They
have Newfoundland's best interests at heart; rightly so, and so they should.
That is why it exists.
The other thing I note here, Madam Speaker, is that P.E.I. has ten times the
subsidy. Prince Edward Island, with a population of 100,000, has ten times the
subsidy that Newfoundland has with respect to transportation in Newfoundland and
Labrador. That in itself is shameful. What does that say to us? Is it that they
do not care? We are second-class citizens here in Newfoundland and Labrador? Is
that what Ottawa is saying to us? Is that what Marine Atlantic is saying to us?
That is a question that needs to be answered.
Again, as I said, I will not be satisfied until the majority of the Board of
Directors of Marine Atlantic are from Newfoundland and have Newfoundland's
best interests at heart.
I have notes here. Another individual brought up: Imagine, if you would, for
one second, that Quebec was an island. Do you think for one second that there
would be any member of the board of directors from Ontario? That is a very good
point to make, Madam Speaker.
We could go on and on on this issue. I have a few more points to make. The
Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, who introduced this, when he
was on his feet, talked about the Truckers Association and that he believes the
level of service is acceptable. I do not believe that, personally, by any
stretch of the imagination.
Here is something - another individual. On Deck and Below, that was a report
that was presented and done by the government, I think, and paid for by the
government, a few years ago. There were some good recommendations in it, some
good comments.
MR. WALSH: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Conception Bay East says page 6 does a
comparison between the two provinces, but the point that I had when I went
through this, the former Minister of Tourism for this Administration, on page 1
of 16, says - and this is the hon. Chuck Furey at the time, and I am going to
read this because it is an important point to make - "The gulf ferry
service is our connection to North America. It exists to serve the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador." - this is very important - "It is the
first impression travellers receive when they come to the Province. Presenters,
and those who sent comments to the forum, are all clients of Marine Atlantic who
have eloquently put forth issues ranging from the pressing lack of capacity to
the need for quality service. People from all regions of the province,
representing all sectors of the economy, have echoed that this is not a 21 st
century service. We must ensure that it is - if Newfoundland and Labrador is to
compete and thrive in the new millennium." Again, if Newfoundland and
Labrador is to compete and thrive in the new millennium, it has to be a
twenty-first century service, and it is not.
That is what we have been saying earlier, that there are many, many issues in
the report, On Deck and Below, that talk about the service, that talk about the
capacity, that talk about various other issues, and we have to get serious in
this Province.
The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island made a good point in
that we have to find a way to get it across to Ottawa, to the decision makers in
Ottawa - now I am not sure, sometimes, if it is the politicians who are the
problem. I am not quite sure. Sometimes they say that the higher up civil
servants control them, make the points, make the issues, and the ministers will
just take the advice and go with it. If that is the case, if it is not the
politicians, then we need to get some new people elected in Ottawa who will
understand Newfoundland for what it is and give us a proper service, a
twenty-first century service.
Again, I wanted to mention the extra costs. When these costs were put onto
the truckers, Madam Speaker, they are passed on to all Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians. As I said, if we buy some clothes, if we buy some food, our
vehicles, everything that is purchased in the Province, these extra costs are
put on to the merchandise or the equipment or whatever we buy in the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
Tourism: the Minister of Tourism is constantly saying our tourism numbers are
up. Well, you know, Madam Speaker, good, great. I hope they continue, but if the
rates to get on this Island, the ferry service rates, continue to rise, as they
have in most recent years, well, that can put a damper on that.
Madam Speaker, as I said before, there are so many issues here to speak on,
and I know members on both sides of the House want to speak to this private
members' resolution. There is one point here, if I can find it, which is an
important point to make if I could find my notes here. I cannot seem to locate
it, but I remember reading it earlier, Madam Speaker. If need be, if I can get
up later on, I may have to get up and make that further statement with respect
to this resolution before the House of Assembly today.
One of my concerns with this, of course, is the fact that we oftentimes put
private member resolutions before the House and that is the end of it. There is
no more to it than that. We are here and we will sit down at 4:00 p.m. or 5:00
p.m., or whatever the case may be, and that is basically the end of it. They
never hear anything more about it. Maybe we can take this private member's
resolution and, probably with the complete approval of the House of Assembly,
send it to the Minister of Transport in Ottawa, put some pressure on them and
get our provincial MPs, both sides, to put some pressure on Ottawa not only to
rescind those rate increases but maybe start decreasing the rates over a number
of years, and go back to the real intention of the Terms of Union that we joined
in 1949, that the Gulf ferry system was supposed to be a continuation of the
Trans-Canada Highway, and eventually we will be treated as equal citizens in
this country. We should not have to pay anything for that service. Maybe that
day will come, and hopefully we will live to see it in this House of Assembly.
With that, Madam Speaker, I will take my seat and give other members a chance
to speak to this resolution.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
I am pleased to rise to offer my support to this private member's bill
today and to speak primarily from a tourism perspective. I want to thank the
Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island for bringing this matter of
considerable importance to our Province to the floor of the House in this
manner.
Madam Speaker, the timing - if you were to look at the timing for something
like this - the timing absolutely could not be worse for Marine Atlantic to
implement a fare increase. We are all aware, Madam Speaker, that there are a
couple of factors that really affect tourism in our Province, and obviously one
of those is the actual cost for travel to the Province. The other, of course, is
the quality of the service that people receive in their travel to the Province
as well.
For a statement to come out in the past week, as it has, that Marine Atlantic
is going to be increasing its fare structure and implementing a policy of
reduced marketing on non-operational services, is one that causes me very great
concern.
Madam Speaker, we have gone through a period where we have seen the air
capacity to our Province reduced. We have had significant announcements in the
past six months and a year which have resulted in reduced air seat passenger
capacity to Newfoundland and Labrador. Again, if people have difficulty in
actually getting to the Province, it has to affect our tourism numbers, but what
we have seen over the past summer is that, while the air passenger travel to the
Province has decreased by approximately 7 per cent, we have seen an increase in
what the industry calls the rubber tire traffic. We have seen an increase in car
travel to this Province, and Marine Atlantic itself is reporting an increase of
13 per cent up to the end of September.
Madam Speaker, we do recognize that Newfoundland and Labrador has become such
an attractive destination to so many people that they are willing to come to the
Province, whether it means coming on all of the available air passenger seats
that are here, or whether it means coming across on the ferry. I have to say
that in my discussions and chats with many of the tourists who were in our
Province this summer they were not unhappy with the ferry service. I think, to
some extent, they kind of built it into the experience. When they were prepared
for it they were willing to say that, okay, the ferry from North Sydney to Port
aux Basques is going to be part of their vacation, but it has to be a good
quality service in order for them to hold this opinion.
Madam Speaker, we rely on this car and passenger traffic as a significant
part of our tourism industry. We know, and we have just released a marketing
study which confirms, that we have to focus on the Maritimes, for example, as
one of our key markets. When you put the Maritimes together with Ontario they
make up almost 80 per cent of the tourism market that we have in the Province.
Many people who come from the Maritimes, and from Ontario, are certainly going
to want to be able to come to the Province through Marine Atlantic, by taking
the ferry service. At a time when we are focusing our efforts and trying to do
the best possible job of marketing to increase the number of tourists who are
coming to our Province, we are seeing, at the same time now, the potential for
the actual costs of traveling to our Province to increase. Madam Speaker, this
is very unfortunate and we know that is going to have a negative impact on our
tourism industry.
Tourism has grown very, very steadily in our Province. Over the past five
years, we have seen this industry come and become one that contributes $300
million to our economy from non-resident visitors. These are from the people who
have to take Marine Atlantic or the people who have to fly here. These are
non-resident visitors. That is an increase of 22 per cent since 1998. It is not
an insignificant part of our economic development in this Province and it is
certainly not an insignificant part of the employment, particularly the seasonal
summer employment, in our Province; although I would have to say to you, that
more and more we are seeing an all seasonal industry. Certainly, that is
something that we have to focus on, to try and increase and improve.
Madam Speaker, it is very important to all of the tourism operators, it is
very important to all of the people who make their livelihood from tourism, that
tourists are able to access our Province in an affordable manner and in one that
provides them with a quality experience.
The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island spoke very eloquently
about the responsibility of the federal government and the need for the federal
government to be involved with this service in a much different way from the way
it is today. Because, Madam Speaker, as I understand it, Marine Atlantic has
reported that it receives only 20 per cent of its operating revenue in the form
of federal government subsidy. It must rely on all of the rest of its
operational expenses and revenue, the whole 80 per cent, from its fares.
Madam Speaker, when you are faced with a situation where Marine Atlantic is
saying to the public of Newfoundland and Labrador, that because of the increase
in usage, because there are more and more people who want to use Marine
Atlantic, they are going to have to increase their fares to respond to it, this
just does not seem to make sense to us. At that rate, if tourism becomes a huge
success we are going to price ourselves out of business altogether. It will
become so expensive to travel here, if the fares have to continue to rise
because of increased passenger traffic to the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador, that it will ultimately defeat itself and serve the opposite's end.
Nobody, including Marine Atlantic, I am sure, wants to see that kind of thing
happen.
We know that a third vessel was required this year and, yes, there is extra
realize that this is an essential link for us to the rest of our country, and
that, yes, as part of the Terms of Union there is an obligation for the federal
government to provide for an accessible service to both residents and visitors.
While the Terms of Union do not set a rate, it is implicit that the rate that
will be charged should be affordable in order to keep this service accessible.
Madam Speaker, I feel very strongly that we have to take a very strong
position, as members of this House on all sides of this House, that we need to
get a strong message to the federal government, that they have to become more
engaged in this issue and they have to contribute more to the costs of the
service of Marine Atlantic. We know that we have to have a good quality service.
We know that things like inflation will continue to effect it. Madam Speaker, I
know and I understand. I took that ferry myself this summer, when I was going
over to Nova Scotia. I found that the employees on the service where trying to
do a very good job, but there comes a time when they have to have the resources
in order to be able to provide the level of service that we all expect.
Madam Speaker, I support the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell
Island. I applaud his efforts to focus this matter to the federal government. I
certainly will be pleased to provide any level of support that I can to the
member and to other members of government, to my colleague, the Minister of
Transportation, to address this to the federal government. I would like to see,
yes, that this fare increase would be cancelled, and more so, if at all
possible, that we would see a phased-in reduction in these fares, so that at
some point in the future, Madam Speaker, we can arrive at a point where the cost
to travel to our Province is much more in line with the costs to travel to other
parts of this country.
Thank you, very much, Madam Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.
I stand today to say a few words to this Private Member's Resolution, as
brought forward by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island. I say
to the member, it is a Private Member's resolution that he will, certainly,
get no objection to from people on this side. It is a motherhood issue. It talks
about the cost of transportation, the cost of the Marine Atlantic Ferry Service,
to this Province. It talks about the impact on the economy of this Province and
calls on the federal government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the
additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality affordable service to this
Province.
Madam Speaker, first impressions are lasting impressions, I say to members
opposite. When we talk about the marine service, we talk about Marine Atlantic,
the service that is being provided to this Province is not only about tourism
and it is not only about transportation, but it is about the cost of almost
every good and every service that is brought into this Province, and it affects
everything from automobiles to shoelaces, I say to members opposite. If any of
us, and most of us have, I am sure, had occasion to travel by Marine Atlantic,
to cross the Gulf, to go and witness the tractor-trailers that we see lined up
in the parking lots both in Port aux Basques and in North Sydney, you realize
the value and the importance of this particular service. Madam Speaker, there
are two ways to get to Newfoundland. You either do it by air or you do it by
Marine Atlantic.
I compared the costs when I found out that I was going to speak on this
particular resolution today, and as I looked up the costs, I found out where the
cost would be and what we would be paying when we use this service after January
1 of this year. Madam Speaker, I understand that the rates are going up by
approximately 4 per cent. After January 1, a single passenger traveling from
Nova Scotia to Newfoundland or vice versa, the cost will be $25 one way. That is
somebody who gets aboard a DRL or takes their own vehicle, parks it on the
parking lot, and just walks aboard Marine Atlantic. It will cost you $25 to make
that trip.
Madam Speaker, we could take it another way. If you are taking a family
vacation and you put your automobile aboard the ferry, the driver goes with that
particular automobile and everybody else in it pays $25 as a private passenger,
a single passenger rate. Now, if you are going to put your vehicle on Marine
Atlantic after January 1, the cost will be $72.75. So, if you are going to
return, if you are going up for a holiday and you are going to return - I am
talking about the driver and the vehicle only - the cost will be $195.50. Just
imagine, $195.50 to pass over or to get transportation over 100 nautical miles
of that particular waterway.
Here is the big one; tractor-trailers. A trucker today - many Newfoundlanders
today are self-employed, have their own trucks and travel back and forth to the
mainland delivering goods and services. Each time that tractor trailer gets
aboard Marine Atlantic today, it will cost the trucker $297.50. That is one way.
So he is going to go up to Ontario, or he is going to go down to Boston, to pick
up a load of goods to bring back here to Newfoundland and Labrador. When he
returns, that complete trip is going to cost that driver, passed on to the
consumer of goods in this Province, $595, that return trip.
Madam Speaker, you might say: Well, we have an alternative. If you do not
want to put your vehicle aboard Marine Atlantic, then you can go out to the
airport and hop aboard Air Canada or some other airline to fly up to Toronto, or
to fly to New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, and lease a car when you get there. At
least you will not have to drive, you will not have to pay for gas, you will not
have to pay for the Marine Atlantic charges.
Let me give you an idea of what that will cost, because I am talking about
the cost, and the unfairness of the cost, of getting to and from this Province,
especially as it relates to people who are visiting here. I think of the tourism
industry, an industry that we are trying to build, an industry that we see that
is going to bring about some economic activity in rural Newfoundland and
Labrador. The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation continues to promote
this particular industry. It is a good industry. It is an industry worth in
excess of $600 million, and it will certainly provide some good opportunities to
rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
Let's look at the cost of an airline ticket, as well, because that is the
only other way to get to this Province. The airlines have a great way of
advertising. If they are going to advertise a ticket from here to Toronto, what
they do is, they advertise the cost of a one-way ticket. That is the way it is
advertised in this particular case. A ticket from St. John's to Toronto, the
airline's price, $249. That is one way. The $249 is one way, but that is the
way they advertise it, Madam Speaker. So now if we are coming back it is going
to cost us another $249. Fair enough, if you are going to go then you have to
come back. Let's look at the other charges attached to that particular airline
ticket. Nav Canada charge - we are talking about a $249 ticket now, one way, so
we are talking about $498 for a return ticket. Return fare: $249. Nav Canada
surcharge: $20, on that particular return ticket to Toronto. Fuel surcharge:
$30, on that particular ticket to Toronto. Insurance surcharge: $6. Airport
improvement fee: $20. Canadian security fee: $22.43. HST and GST: $96.31. Now if
you are going to use a travel agent, which most people do today, travel agent
service fee: $50. So that particular airline ticket from St. John's to
Toronto, that the airline has advertised for $249, when you look at the return
fare and when you look at the other fares, the total cost of that airline ticket
for somebody travelling return from Toronto to St. John's: $742.74. Madam
Speaker, that is what we are faced with here today.
We are looking at Marine Atlantic, that continues to raise the cost of that
particular service, and if you look at the airline industry that continues to
raise the cost of that particular service, you might say: Well, we will use our
points. We will travel back and forth on our points. We can travel anyway in the
world, anyway that Air Canada flies, on our point system. But call the airlines
and try to book a ticket and try to reserve a seat to use your travel points
from St. John's to anywhere else in the world. Just try it and see, number
one, how long you have to wait, and, number two, at the end of the day, ask them
how many seats are available on a flight from anywhere on the mainland to St.
John's. You will find that we come up very, very short on that particular end
as well.
Madam Speaker, as I said, this is a good resolution. It is a resolution that
everybody in this House will support, brought forward by the Member of
Conception Bay East & Bell Island. He asked if we would make
recommendations, and he was interested in hearing what other people said. Well,
I am interested in hearing what the government has done, what this government
has done, in order to maintain a fee which is acceptable to Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians.
The member who brought forward this particular resolution was a former
Minister of Tourism. Did the minister ever go to Ottawa and make representation
on behalf of Newfoundlanders, to talk about the cost of Marine Atlantic service?
Did the present Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation ever make a journey,
a pilgrimage, to Ottawa and sit down with the federal minister and put forward
Newfoundland's needs, and put forward what the cost is of raising this
transportation fee, what it means to tourism here in this Province, and what it
means to the purchase of goods and services? Has the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs gone to Ottawa and made representation? The Minister
of Works, Services and Transportation, has he ever gone to Ottawa and sat down
with his federal counterparts, his federal cousins, and talked about the
unfairness of travel, the expense and the cost of getting goods and services,
and moving people in and out of this Province into other parts of mainland
Canada?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) power point presentation.
MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Speaker, I know he made a power point presentation.
I say, power point presentations are certainly not meaningful in most cases.
It is something that should be done. While it is meaningful to donate a day
in this Legislature to talk about something that is happening in Ottawa, in the
nation's capital, and the negative effective it is having on this Province, I
am not so sure how meaningful it is, or if David Collenette, the Minister of
Transport in the nation's capital, knows, or even is going to be concerned,
that we are having this discussion here today.
I say to members opposite, and I say to people opposite, maybe it is about
time we started making a few trips to Ottawa, to take forward the concerns and
to take forward the negativity that happens here every time we see a hike in
transportation rates and how it affects the people of this Province.
MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that his time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Speaker, I understand that my time is up.
This particular resolution is certainly a good resolution. It needs to be
attended to in a much more meaningful way than bringing forward a private member's
resolution. The will has to exist with this government, with the Minister of
Tourism, with the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, with the Minister of
Works, Services and Transportation, and with the Premier, to take a strong
message to their cousins in Ottawa to talk about the unfairness of this rate
hike and to talk about the needs of the people here, the cost of commodities
here in this Province. We are all a part of this nation known as Canada, and it
is about time that we all started being treated as equals.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: (Mercer): The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would just like to say a few words on the resolution before the House,
brought forth by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island,
concerning the ferry service to the mainland of Canada that we have to North
Sydney.
The resolution is a good one. I think we all, in this House, support that,
that there ought to be opposition expressed to the recently announced fare
increases to the travelling public and to the transportation industry in
general, based on this ferry service, but also calling on the federal government
to provide the additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality and affordable
ferry service to this Province.
Mr. Speaker, that link is vital. Obviously we have airlines as a method of
transportation, but the travel link by road is vital for this Province. It is
vital for the economy of this Province, for the making available of consumer
goods by transport, and also, and very importantly, passenger travel for
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to be able to access other parts of the
country, but also, of course, to allow visitors to our Province for our growing
tourist industry.
It is very vital that this link be affordable, be reasonably priced. What we
have seen instead, Mr. Speaker, is that the price keeps going up and up and
becoming more prohibitive. How many people here know, just from anecdotal
experience alone, friends of theirs, people they have met from other parts of
the country, who say: I have never actually been to Newfoundland and Labrador. I
drove down to the Maritimes there last year, or two years ago, or three years
ago, with my family, but no, we never made it over to Newfoundland and Labrador
because the cost of getting on the ferry was too expensive. It would cost
several hundred dollars for a family to get across and get back again, and they
just could not afford to do it. It was not something that they had planned for.
It was not an expense they had planned for. The sticker shock when making
inquiries as to the availability and price of ferries just was not there. They
could not handle the cost and they could not add to their vacation at the last
minute.
We have seen that time and time again, people wanting to come to this
Province and really feeling they have missed something - and they have, of
course - because they have not been able to travel to this Province. They cannot
do it because of the cost. That is something that we have to continue to be
There are hearings going on today, Mr. Speaker, on the issue of what is
called, in labour law terms, whether or not the ferry service is an essential
service. This resolution is not about that, and I am glad it is not, because
that is a different point altogether. I do say, if it is such an essential
presumably, who is giving directions, wants to get the Canada Industrial
Relations Board to dictate that it is so essential a service that employees
ought not to have the right to strike - a proposition I disagree with, by the
way - but if it is so essential, if it is considered so essential by Marine
it, Mr. Speaker, made available in a cheaper way, and even free? If it is so
essential, why isn't it free, if it is part of the Trans-Canada, if it is part
of the way that we, in this Province, get to other parts of the country, and
people get here, particularly to the Island? We do have other access, through
the Labrador portion of the Province, with a road, not a very good road as of
yet, but a road that exists and there is transportation there. In order to get
to the Island part of the Province, the ferry is a vital and essential link. In
fact, it is so vital and important that it is included in the Terms of Union
between Newfoundland and Labrador and Canada, and it was made so because of the
vital importance to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is pretty
clear, Mr. Speaker.
The previous speaker talked about some of the specific costs, the actual cost
of $25 per person to just be on the ferry for that ninety-mile trip across the
Gulf of St. Lawrence. To cover ninety miles of highway, obviously the cost for a
passenger would be fairly minimum, Mr. Speaker.
We do support this resolution, it is a very important one, and I think we
have to do more than just pass resolutions like this. We had a instance a few
years ago. I remember one previous Minister of Tourism referring to the Marine
Atlantic service as a constitutional cattle boat, made a big fuss in this House
and the big furor in the media, over a period of time talking about this. There
was committee of government who tried to do something about it. We need more of
that, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we need that today because, although we have seen
some response to that - Captain Sid Hynes was appointed to manage the ferry
service and has made some operational improvements. He is highly regarded as a
sound manager and a straight shooter in terms of how he manages that service,
but he is also seeking an increase and there are announced increases for the new
year.
There needs to be government action, Mr. Speaker, and not just a resolution
to this Assembly, which of course we support, but the people's representatives
in this Province have to make a stronger representation to the Government of
Canada to ensure that this service is available, is affordable and has
sufficient quality that it would be attractive to the traveling public, not only
from this Province but also for those who we would hope to visit here.
The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation indicated the importance of
the tourism industry to the Province. Well, that industry is growing in value,
Mr. Speaker, and it is growing in value because more and more people are
recognizing that this is a very fascinating place to visit, it is a unique place
to visit and, as the word is getting around, it is a place where more and more
people want to come. Mr. Speaker, as long as the barrier of the high cost ferry
is there, then we are not going to get the number of tourism dollars that we
would like to get.
We notice, Mr. Speaker, very clearly, many people who visit from the United
States, from the New England states, who come up by road, traveling around, they
end their trip in Nova Scotia, they do not come to Newfoundland, because that
psychological and economic barrier is there of the ferry service. Will I be able
to get on the ferry boat? What will it cost me to take not only myself but
perhaps a trailer? We have so many people traveling now with travel trailers and
they charge per foot, of course, to get on the ferry. So, it not simply a high
expense for people with transport trucks, Mr. Speaker, transporting goods back
and forth across the Gulf, but it is a high expense for people who are traveling
around the highways in the summertime with travel trailers and their families.
To bring a trailer across the Gulf is very expensive, indeed.
We have to do something about that, Mr. Speaker. Something needs to be done
to make sure that people who would like to visit the Province, to spend their
money here, to see our tourism attractions, to enjoy our culture and the
experiences that they can have here, have an opportunity to do that. We, of
course, want them here because we want them to spend their money. We want to
develop our economy. We want to make sure that young people in this Province
have every opportunity to stay here and live and work here and develop this
Province, develop their own communities. In order to do that, vital to that is
the accessability of the Province and vital to that is to ensure that this be
affordable. It is getting to the point, Mr. Speaker, that so many people are
unable to come to this Province, that it is an economic detriment to the people
forth a greater subsidy so that this can be comparable, at least, to the cost of
traveling by road, comparable to the cost that it would take to travel over a
100 or 150 kilometres of road. That is what we are talking about, when people
can travel to other parts of the country.
Even the very expensive PEI bridge, the Confederation Bridge, I think the
return trip on that for a vehicle is probably in the order of - the one way trip
is probably in the order of $18 to $20 for a $1 billion bridge that was built a
few years ago. We surely can expect that traveling to this Province should be no
more expensive than that, when we are traveling from one province to another by
a link of that nature.
I would support this resolution, Mr. Speaker, and ask that all hon. members
support it, but I also ask that the government consider reviving its committee
on the ferry service so that we can all, all sides of the House, participate in
what the Member for Bonavista South suggested, that we have more representation
from this House to go to Ottawa to ensure that the seriousness of this issue is
brought to the attention of the federal minister, brought to the attention of
other parties in the House of Commons, so that we get the support that we need
when we are looking for better ferry service and a more reasonable price for
ferry service to Newfoundland and Labrador through Marine Atlantic.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased today to stand and make a few comments on the Private Member's
Resolution put forward by the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.
It is, certainly, something very timely in relation to the increases that were
recently announced by Marine Atlantic. As previous speakers have mentioned, and
we have heard over the past number of years, the existence of Marine Atlantic in
today's world, in Canada today, is because of the Island of Newfoundland and
Labrador, Mr. Speaker. With the bridge now going to Prince Edward Island, we are
really the only connection that needs Marine Atlantic, and I think it is
imperative that we try our best, in any way here in the House, to get the
message across to the people in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, that it is important that
we treat the Port aux Basques to North Sydney run and the North Sydney run to
Argentia, which is a part of my district, as parts of our Trans-Canada.
Certainly, any increases in travel rates are a deterrent to tourism development
in our Province, I believe, Mr. Speaker, and I think that it needs to be highly
discussed here in this House and certainly brought forward wherever we can. I
certainly agree with others who have said that presentations should be made to
Ottawa, if that means that a delegation from the House, a delegation of MHAs, to
travel to Ottawa or whatever the case may be, to keep pushing this forward.
What concerns me the most, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that this is not a new
topic. This is not something that has come to the floor of the House of Assembly
today for the first time. It is not something that has evolved in Newfoundland
and Labrador for the first time today. This has been an ongoing topic for many,
many years now. It seems like, instead of listening to what we are saying down
here, instead of listening to the suggestions and the ideas that we are putting
forward on both sides of the House, that the people in Ottawa decided they are
not going to listen to us and they are going to do their own thing.
We go back a few years ago, when the then Minister of Tourism, Culture and
Recreation, Chuck Furey, traveled throughout the Province and presented a
report, On Deck and Below , which certainly involved a number of
recommendations to try to improve the system, to try to improve the ferry system
to this Province. My question today is: After so many years, Mr. Speaker, how
many of the recommendations in the On Deck and Below report have been
followed, have been taken care of and approved and put together to improve the
system that we have in relation to the ferry system? Very few of them have even
been looked at.
This was a big issue at that time. This was a big issue in my district of
Placentia & St. Mary's because of the fact that Argentia is there. While
it is only a summer operation, it is a major, major part of the economic
activity in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's and, indeed, the whole
Avalon area. To have two points of entry in the Province, one in Port aux
Basques and one in Argentia, is an opportunity, I would think, to create a
tourism marketing plan that would take the situation where you would come in in
one area and go out in another. I think we had some incentives put in place by
Marine Atlantic last year, or something to that effect, to try to do that, where
they allowed you to go back at half cost. You would come in through one route
and go back on half cost through another route.
When those meetings were held for the On Deck and Below report - there
were five hearings held in the Province, Mr. Speaker; in Channel-Port aux
Basques, Corner Brook, Grand Falls-Windsor, Placentia, and St. John's, and the
largest meeting was in Placentia. The largest amount of people to turn out in
any of those meetings was in Placentia, around 350 people, because it is a very
important issue in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's. It is very
important for the tourism development, people who are out there involved in
tourism. It is a very important topic. I think it is time that we came up with
some conclusion here, as Members of the House of Assembly, to carry our message
to Ottawa, whether it is David Collenette, whether it is Jean Chrtien, or
whoever the case may be, to get somebody to listen to what we are saying here.
It gets frustrating for us, as members of the House, Mr. Speaker, to be
constantly asking the same thing of Ottawa, and to be putting forward the same
concerns, time and time again, in relation to the ferry system in the Province.
It seems like it is falling on deaf ears.
I have to ask myself, and I am sure other members have asked, if we were in
some other part of Canada that had a population base larger than we have in this
Province, or if we had more numbers of MPs sitting in the House of Commons, or
if we had more power in relation to our representatives at that level, would we
be in the position today where we are here basically asking for the right to be
part of Canada, to be part of this Confederation, and to be part of this
country?
We spend millions of dollars in the Province on marketing Newfoundland and
Labrador, as the Minister of Tourism touched on earlier. You know, it is a place
in the world that many people have not even had the opportunity to see yet, and
one of the greatest deterrents that they have is the cost of getting here. I
have heard that from people from all around the world, Mr. Speaker; the major
deterrent is the cost of getting here. You know, we are an island. You have to
either come here by plane or come here by boat. We all know the cost of air
travel, especially with families who are travelling, gets enormous. Therefore,
an opportunity to take their vehicle over here, to travel around the Province
and to see this place, the pristine environment that we have in many parts of
our Province, the great natural attractions that we have - in my own district,
such as Cape St. Mary's, the Ecological Reserve - and we can go on and on
right around this Province and talk about what we have here to offer.
The fact is, we can have what we like, but if we cannot get people to come
here, if we have a ferry service that is going to be a deterrent for people
coming here, well, Mr. Speaker, the millions of dollars that we are spending in
some cases may be in vain for the simple reasons that people want to visit
Newfoundland and Labrador but, because of the ferry system and the cost of that
ferry system....
I think what we should be looking at here as a promotion, if we are
supposedly a major part of this Confederation, you know, I think what we should
be looking at here is a five-year plan. I can remember when I spoke at the forum
in Placentia, and I put forward that exact same idea. We need a five-year plan
put in place here, and I think we should be looking at major reductions in the
cost of the ferry system, and major promotion, and we need the assistance of the
federal government to do that, Mr. Speaker. I think we need to put a five-year
plan in place, a major promotion, and a reduction in ferry rates, to draw people
here, to get people to come and visit here. We need to give them an incentive to
do that.
I think, even though Marine Atlantic stepped up to the plate last year as an
incentive that I mentioned earlier, that is not the type of incentive that we
need. We need a major incentive to draw people in here. We need to be able to
market that incentive, and you cannot do that in a couple of months. That takes
time. It takes years to develop that market and to promote what we have here. If
we could come up with an incentive from the federal government in relation to
Marine Atlantic, I think it would pay off in dividends to us all over the years.
I think it is important.
When I look at the infrastructure and dollars that have been put into
infrastructure, again I go back to my own District of Placentia & St. Mary's.
We have spent millions and millions of dollars over the past number of years
developing infrastructure, developing accommodations, developing trail systems,
developing places such as Cape St. Mary's, as I mentioned earlier, where we
paved the road out there and built a new
Interpretation Centre. All these
things, Mr. Speaker, are things to attract and accommodate our tourists when
they come here.
As I said earlier, if we cannot get them to come here, that is the problem.
Therefore, I think that we should be looking at bringing a committee here of the
House, of whatever nature it is, to formulate a plan, which would not take very
long, I am sure. We have people on both sides of the House who have been
involved with the tourism industry for many, many years, and to bring that plan
to Ottawa and to say: We want a five-year plan put in place to deal with the
concerns that we have here, to develop the industry. I think we can do that.
If we lay aside tourism for a moment and we talk about the movement of goods
and services throughout the Province, again, most of this stuff has to come into
our Province and we have to ship our fish or whatever product we have to ship
out. I would say it is important that we create an atmosphere where these people
can operate. Certainly, I think it is time that we looked at the Argentia- North
Sydney run a little bit different than what we have in the past number of years.
I call on the provincial government and the federal government to do that. It
is time in this Province now that we take that run seriously. We need to have a
five-year plan in place for Argentia, also. We have people out there, Mr.
Speaker, who are spending an immense amount of dollars in developing tourist
accommodations and other parts of the tourism industry. For a few weeks in the
summer we get a glut. It is like the codfish used to be years ago. We get a glut
in late July and early August, and then we have to try to survive for the other
twelve months on that, so I think it is time that we take a serious look at
that.
This private member's resolution put forward here today, while the Member
for Bonavista South said earlier, it is a motherhood issue, it is an issue that
we have been talking about in this Province now for many, many years. I think it
is time that we stepped up to another level and make the case a lot more
stronger than what we have. Hopefully, through the efforts of everybody in the
House, and through the efforts of everybody in the Province, we will have some
action taken on this very important issue and that our tourism industry, which
is now creating thousands of jobs in this Province and bringing in millions of
dollars of revenue in this Province, will be taken seriously by the federal
government. It is about time that we took a very serious look at this. Instead
of talking any more, I think it is time for action.
With that, Mr. Speaker, I say thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell
Island.
MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, to begin my closing remarks, I would like to
thank all members who participated in the debate this afternoon, and indeed
thank each of them for their support. They were from various regions of the
Province, and, in doing so from various regions, speaking on behalf of virtually
all members, I hope, in the House of Assembly today.
Mr. Speaker, the resolution says it all for us. It calls upon the House of
Assembly to oppose the recently announced fare increases to the travelling
public and to the transportation industry. It further calls upon the House of
Assembly to ask the federal government, through Marine Atlantic, to provide the
additional subsidy necessary to provide a quality and affordable ferry service
to this Province.
Mr. Speaker, that is what the resolution is about. That is what the
resolution is asking for. That is what speaker after speaker this afternoon has
asked for as well. I ask now, Mr. Speaker, that you put the question to this
hon. House, and I trust that we will receive unanimous support.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: It is the pleasure of the House to adopt the resolution?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.
MR. SPEAKER: All those against, nay'.
Carried.
It being Wednesday, and the business of the House concluded, this House now
stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, at 1:30 p.m.