June 2,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 54

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health.

Mr. Speaker, from 1990 to 1993, this government has closed

511 acute care hospital beds in the Province, which is a reduction of 20 per

cent. Now, I suspect the real number is closer to one-third, because some

hospitals have listed bed closures as temporary, even though the beds have been

closed for a year or more. I ask the minister: How many additional acute care

beds will close this year in 1994-1995 as a result of Budget cuts taken in this

year's Budget?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member again is at his

usual tricks of alarming the public. He alarmed the public yesterday and he was

chastised by one of the hospital administrators, and so he should be; he is

always at it.

Mr. Speaker, we have proposed that certain beds be closed

this year and the process is ongoing between us and the hospital administration

and boards; this process is not completed yet and when it does, health care will

not suffer one iota because we are closing beds and encouraging boards to move

into more out-patient days and same-day surgery. That is the modern trend right

across Canada and everywhere else and we, in this Province, are proud of what we

are doing in that regard. Health care will not suffer. All that's making health

care suffer in this Province is the hon. member opposite.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

He still hasn't answered the question and I will just make

brief reference to Sister Elizabeth Davis, the person he is referring to. The

memo sent by her to the staff at the hospital indicated budgetary restraints is

one of the reasons for those hospital closures. I ask the minister to read that.

Hospital administrators and professionals in the health care

system have warned you time and time again, that these cuts are ravaging health

care in the Province because there is no funding in place for an alternative

community-based health care system.

Now, the minister keeps talking about a grand strategy for

community-based health care.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to get to the question.

MR. SULLIVAN: When is the minister going to back up his

words with action? And when will he deliver support for community-based health

care?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, we are moving as rapidly as we

can to set up regional community health care boards, and that is our strategy.

Right now, there exists in the Province, in various parts, a

reasonably good home care system, such as in the Gander area and the St. John's

area, and some hospitals have established this. However, I must admit, it is not

consistent throughout the Province, which is why we are setting up the regional

community health care boards, and as we proceed, these things will be looked

after.

I notice a proposal from Dr. Turner, in The Express ,

where he suggests that people who are on NCARP - and that may be of some

interest to the hon. member, that people who are on these packages might be

diverted into home care.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I have read that article, and I read the letter prior to

publication, actually; I got a copy.

Now, hospitals are being forced to shorten hospital stays to

accommodate budget cuts, and it isn't working because there is no backup system

in the communities. The minister knows it, and this Province has the highest

rate of re-admission of any province in this country.

Will the minister call a halt to his dismantling of the

hospital-based health system until he has a plan in place, and a strategy, for

community-based health care?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, there is no problem here. The

member is manufacturing these. You know what he is doing? He is dialling these

numbers, phoning all the hospitals and saying, `Hello, this is Loyola Sullivan,

your critic in Opposition. I would like to speak to the executive director,

please.' `I am sorry, Sir, the director is not available.' `Well, let me speak

to the assistant director.' `Now, have you stopped beating your wife, assistant

director?' That is the way he is getting on, Mr. Speaker. It is time for him to

give up this nonsense.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The people who are waiting for hospital beds, and the

families of people who have died waiting for hospital beds, would not find your

comments very funny, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I have letters from people who died. I will

give them to you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: You had letters from people who died. Was

that before they died?

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, before they died - that's right.

MR. TOBIN: My question is to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. I

want to ask the Premier if the results of the Corporate Research polling done

for CBC, which showed a massive plunge in support for the government, the

Liberal Party, and for his leadership, has finally convinced him that the people

are firmly opposed to the sale of Hydro? I ask the Premier now, will you bow to

their wishes and withdraw the Hydro privatization legislation as you promised to

do on March 24?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, we are going to govern this

Province on the basis that we've outlined in our policy statements to provide

for the best interest of the people of the Province. We are not going to run and

cower from pressures that the Opposition create to try to fabricate problems

where none really exist. The Minister of Health just identified the actions

being taken by the Member for Ferryland. We know that other actions have been

taken by other members. We know that the Leader of the Opposition did the same

thing with the pulp and paper companies on another matter. We know the approach

they take to try to create difficulties.

They are not interested in governing the Province in such a

way as to make sure that we provide for the best interest of the people. They've

ceased to become Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition and have become `Her Majesty's

Loyal Obstruction.' We don't intend to allow that to happen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the people who oppose the sale of

Hydro are not ignorant or hysterical on the issue as the Premier would like

everyone to believe. They are opposed because they know the deal is bad for them

and for the Province and more and more of them suspect the Premier has a hidden

agenda. Does the Premier care that his stubborn refusal to withdraw the

legislation is destroying public trust in the government and in his own

leadership?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I've never suggested that the

people who have expressed opposition are hysterical. What I have said is that

the opposition has been provoked by an hysterical Opposition opposite. The

criticism of the Hydro proposal has been generated on the basis of the hysteria

created by these emotional arguments.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the government has a responsibility to make

sure that we take steps to ensure that the people are fully informed as to all

the issues, and the real need for government to do this in the best interests of

the people of the Province. We intend to continue to promote that kind of

understanding of the government's policy, the basis for it and the value to the

people of the Province in the future. We intend to continue it.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: We're aware of your propaganda campaign that

you have started even though you have refused to say how much it costs.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier may say that the public support may

come and go.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, opposition to the sale of Hydro

is not a silly whim that is going to go away. The people of this Province will

not forgive nor will they forget, I say to the Premier. Do you care, Mr.

Premier, that public mistrust, caused by the Hydro issue, is eroding trust and

confidence in the government on all issues; and are you blind to the fact that

you are losing the moral authority to govern in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: It's incredible that a person, a member of

this House who was a member of the Peckford administration, could even speak

those words.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Can you imagine! No wonder he laughs and

smirks. I'm not surprised.

Mr. Speaker, he also mentioned the cost of the information

program that the government has undertaken. We don't have the detailed cost. I

can say to the members opposite, that it won't be one-tenth of what they used to

spend on advertising with their ministers pictures in the paper. It won't be

one-tenth of what they used to spend on that!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the

acting Minister of Tourism -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I can't hear the hon. member.

MR. MANNING: My questions today are for the acting

Minister of Tourism and Culture.

Mr. Speaker, Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador has

embarked on a new initiative in a customer service training program called

SuperHost; an excellent step forward, I might add. I'd like to ask the minister:

What type of training in customer and public relations is received by persons

who obtain work at provincial parks in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MR. FUREY: There's a very short training period, Mr.

Speaker, that's conducted by - the Public Service Commission, I believe, is

involved with it. For all student jobs, whether in the parks, in our chalets

around the Province or on the ferry system, it's a very small one week course,

basically.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

Mary's -The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Almost every employee of government, or those in private

business, are evaluated and monitored continuously. I would like to ask the

minister: How are people who work at provincial parks monitored to make sure

they are performing their required duties, and most importantly, that they are

treating our visitors with the utmost in customer service?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, through our regular system our

permanent employees and managers of the park system, those who are there

permanently, keep an eye on that. We have had very few complaints over the last

number of years, whether it be through tourism, the students we hire there, or

the young people that work in our parks. In fact we received many complimentary

letters.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will pass on to the minister a couple of pictures taken at

Cape St. Mary's ecological reserve by a group of tourists last summer that show

the

interpretation office closed down at 4:30 p.m. on a bright August evening.

The cardboard box sign hanging on the door says, "We are closed. Please do not

disturb us."

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: Does he

believe our tourism industry should shut down at 4:30 p.m., and would he attempt

to make sure that a shift system is put in place at our provincial parks, and

that the employees are trained to know that visitors do not disturb us?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I take the hon. member's

suggestions as fact. I don't know whether it is fact or not, but I can only

assume that he is being sincere. That is one of our best locations, the bird

sanctuary. I see him ready to table these documents. It is a pretty poor

facility out there and I can tell him that this government negotiated a $1.2

million

interpretation centre which tenders will be let for tomorrow, a brand

new facility.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: I can also tell him that we have hired four

students, I think from the hon. member's area, and I consulted with the hon.

member.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I understand that in his absence

either the acting minister or the Premier may be familiar with the topic I wish

to address.

The City of St. John's has received an application to develop

a thirty-five unit apartment complex at 130 LeMarchant Road in St. John's. That

is the site of the former Prince of Wales College. The total value of the

proposal is $3 million. The city held a pubic hearing on this matter on May 10

in accordance with the City of St. John's Act, to rezone the property from

institutional to apartment high density. The application must now be processed

to rezone the property from institutional to apartment high-density. The

application must now be processed under the Urban and Rural Planning Act. This

means more delays, more red tape, more bureaucracy. Since this application

affects no other municipality and no other governance authority, why must the

developer wait for several more months while the formalities of the Urban and

Rural Planning Act are processed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the minister is absent, as my

hon. friend noted. I will take the question as notice and make sure he gets a

detailed answer as soon as we can, but let me make a couple of points in

response to his general comments.

First of all, we are committed to a review of the entire

regulatory process aimed at ending or reducing to the absolute, irreducible

minimum the sort of red tape of which he is speaking. Because we acknowledge

readily there is far too much of it and we would like to see people able to get

on with their lawful and proper business affairs.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Secondly - well, the minister has come. I

will speak to him and he can answer later. Secondly, let me say that while the

law is the law, we have to follow the law. If the Urban and Rural Planning Act

requires the minister to follow certain procedures, then we will have to follow

them and deal with them and observe the law until that law is changed.

I will have a word with the minister now and before the end

of Question Period, we will get the answer to the hon. gentleman's question. In

fact, if he wants to send over the script from which he read, it would help the

minister to know exactly where we are. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, with leave of the Chair, I will

defer the rest of my questions and maybe I will place them later on in Question

Period, to the minister.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The

Memorandum of Understanding between government and the NLTA contains a

commitment to develop a system whereby redundant teachers who remain unemployed

from one school board would be given priority access to vacant positions in

other boards. I would like to ask the Premier: How do you square that with the

commitment you made to the churches in the modifications to your proposals for

restructuring the education system in which you guaranteed they would retain the

right to select suitable teachers for uni-denominational schools and the

government would take the responsibility to resolve any conflicts between the

exercise of that right and the teachers' collective agreement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, frankly, I can see the

potential for difficulty the hon. member highlights but I would think there

would be no difficulty resolving it. Because, quite frankly, it would provide

for a greater level of mobility and bumping than now exists for teachers. I

would think that the NLTA would welcome a rearrangement that provided an

acceptable accommodation for teachers in uni-denominational schools. I would

hope that we would be able to negotiate it because it seems such a reasonable

thing to do, and the net result of the overall would be to improve the ability

to develop mobility for teachers across school boards generally. My thinking at

this stage is that we would have little or no difficulty working out an

arrangement acceptable to the NLTA.

In the end, it is clear that collective agreements can't

supersede statutory or constitutional rights, and we have to provide for those,

and collective agreements must, of course, be subject to those rights. I would

think there would be no difficulty with the NLTA because it is such a reasonable

proposition.

MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary, the hon. the

Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Looking at both documents, I think the government would find itself in quite a

bind. I can't see how you can honour both commitments. I would like to ask the

Premier: Which one do you intend to keep? Do you stand by the Memorandum of

Understanding with teachers or do you stand by your guarantee with the church

leaders? I say to the Premier, you can't have it both ways, so which commitment

are you going to honour?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: What commitment is he talking about? I

know the commitment I've given to the churches, but what is the other commitment

the hon. member is talking about? I don't understand his position. I think he is

talking about something that really doesn't exist.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, if you read the Memorandum of

Understanding, the tentative agreement with the NLTA, Mr. Speaker, at the top of

page 4, it says: `The development of a system whereby redundant teachers who

remain unemployed from one school board would be given priority access to vacant

positions in other school boards',' That is obviously conflicting and

contradictory to the Memorandum of Understanding.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh yes, I say to the Member for Eagle

River. You are not allowed to think for yourself and you are certainly not

allowed to speak on your feet, I say to the member, so he should be quiet and

perhaps he would become better educated as a result.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, any statement there does not

really conflict with that. Anything that is done can only be in the schools

where we can control the teachers, where we can control - or the ordinary

regulation can control the appointment of teachers. If there are schools where

the ability to appoint is beyond the control of government, that obviously can't

be met.

Now, if the hon. member doesn't understand that, I have great

confidence that the NLTA does.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a

final supplementary.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I have great confidence that the

membership of the NLTA understands very well, Mr. Speaker, I say to the Premier,

very, very well.

I want to ask the Premier this. The details for implementing

the labour force adjustment strategies contained in the Memorandum of Agreement

with the NLTA have to be worked out between government and the NLTA within

thirty days of the signing of the agreement. Since this is a key issue as well

with your talks with the church leaders on restructuring the school system, will

they be invited to participate in the discussions?

They are concerned about it, I say to the Premier. He can

shake his head and turn red all he likes. There is a problem here and you have

to address it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WELLS: There is no problem.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask hon. members to give the President of Treasury Board a

chance to answer the question.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader is being very confusing

in his

interpretation of the Memorandum of Understanding. The Memorandum of

Understanding refers to a labour force adjustment strategy that we will hope to

work out within thirty days of the signing of a collective agreement. That

discussion will take place in the thirty days involving the school boards -

which, in essence, are representatives of the churches - the government, and the

NLTA. If, at the end of the thirty days, there is no agreement, then it can be

extended a bit more, but ultimately, if there is no agreement, it is put off

until the next round of collective bargaining. So this is an attempt by

government, school boards and NLTA, to sit down at some point in time and work

out a labour force adjustment strategy.

The points that would be included in that are not defined

clearly. There is no definitive list, and always, of course, anything that is

worked out would be subjected to suitability and currently modern standards, and

that kind of thing, so there is no conflict -absolutely no conflict - between

that and anything that may or may not be worked out with the churches.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte - White

Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Last September, the university made arrangements with the

Department of Forestry and Agriculture for two graduate students in forestry to

complete the research work for their graduate thesis this summer at the model

force on the West Coast. I want to ask the minister: Did he cancel those

arrangements with the university?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that

question under advisement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FLIGHT: The definitive - I will get the information.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, it was two students who were

involved. I know now, since, that there have been alternate arrangements made

for at least one of the students, and the other I am not sure of, as of right

now.

AN HON. MEMBER: What districts were they from?

MR. SHELLEY: - but that isn't the point. Why did the

minister interfere with the pre-arrangement that was made with the university

way back in September?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, as every Member of this House of

Assembly knows, we get hundreds and hundreds of applications from students this

time of year for jobs. I am not aware of any commitment that has been made to

provide long-term work for students, or that any student is guaranteed work year

after year after year.

Now, the member seems to be implying that those students had

an understanding that they would work year after year after year because of some

arrangement we had with the university. Frankly, Mr. Speaker, I don't think he

knows what he is talking about, but I will undertake to determine exactly what

the situation is with those two particular students.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the minister that I

do know what I am talking about, with the calls I have had to my office

concerning this case. It was brought to me because they couldn't get the answers

from the minister.

Now, there were two students who are doing graduate work,

thesis work that was supposed to be done this summer. Since September these

students have said that they have a commitment that they would be working on

model force on the West Coast, that was part of the thesis and that was how they

would finally graduate. Now, at the eleventh hour, as a matter of fact, last

Wednesday, these students were told that that position was no longer available

and that there was some interference somewhere along the line, that they don't

understand it as of now. I would like to ask the minister if he knows anything

about that interference.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture.

MR. FLIGHT: No, Mr. Speaker. I am not aware of any

interference in respect of the position raised by the member, and based on most

of his questions, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that he talk to the university

and maybe he will get the answers.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, earlier on in Question Period, I

directed a question to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and

since he has taken his seat now and he has the text of the question that I

raised, I wonder if he would like to comment on the concerns of the City of St.

John's and the Urban and Rural Planning Act?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that my hon.

friend, the Member for Waterford - Kenmount, would be asked to present this and

ask this question in the House, because it was only yesterday that this was

brought to my attention, and the City of St. John's has a habit, or has, I

suppose, since I have been appointed as minister, to be contacting me personally

in my department on issues such as this.

The answer to the question is, yes, I do have the authority,

and, as far as I know, this has been taken care of some two or three days ago.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to remind the minister

that 70 per cent of my constituents live in the city of St. John's; therefore, I

certainly do have a responsibility to raise those issues. I would also like to

quote for the minister from a letter from the Mayor of St. John's, who says: `I

have written the Premier twice on this matter and also discussed it with the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and the Deputy Minister, but to no

avail.'

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to point out here that it is ironic

that in the Speech from the Throne, there were references to facilitating

economic development and reducing bureaucracy. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the

minister, can he today, send a message to the City of St. John's -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. HODDER: that they would not be inhibited in their

development in the future by this kind of bureaucratic red tape, that his deputy

minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I can't hear.

MR. HODDER: - send out a circular to the various

municipalities asking for suggestions as to how to cut the red tape.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I am having trouble hearing whether the hon. member has a

question or not, so if hon. members would desist, I would be in an easier

position to make a decision on it? I didn't hear the last two sentences the hon.

member said. Did the minister?

The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I am not being sarcastic and I am

not trying to be facetious basically, I will be quite honest and I think the

hon. members on the other side will admit that I have been pretty accessible

both to every member on that side of the House and every council in this

Province, and for the hon. member to get up and say that the Mayor of St. John's

has written the Premier and written me and has not had a reply, I take exception

to that.

MR. TOBIN: He didn't say it.

MR. REID: I take exception to the fact that the Mayor

said it; that's right, I take exception to the fact that the Mayor said it. The

Mayor - on several occasions in the City of St. John's, in the last twelve

months that I have been minister in this department, I have done things for him

to accommodate little things like this and I totally agree, the City of St.

John's have their planners, have their rules and regulations, but, there is such

a thing as Acts in this Province that we have to abide by, and I, as minister,

or the Premier, or the Mayor of St. John's, cannot break the law to accommodate

people unless we can find ways legally to get around problems like this and to

address them.

I will make the commitment to the hon. member, this afternoon

when I go back to my office, I will call the Mayor or the people in the City of

St. John's, and find out what the problem is on this. As far as I know, this is

not a problem. It was supposed to be addressed two or three days ago and I am

telling the truth to the member. I say to the member that I am very, very

disappointed that the City of St. John's would have to go to the Opposition to

get a question on this and make those comments in the House of Assembly in order

to succeed in accomplishing what they want to do in that area.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

In the last sitting of the House, I asked the minister the

status of the bridge in the intersection at South Brook on the Trans-Canada. The

minister undertook at that time to tell me when that project would be undertaken

under the Trans-Canada Agreement with the Federal Government. I didn't get an

answer from the minister. I subsequently wrote the minister, I put a question on

the Order Paper in this sitting of the House, and the minister has not replied

to that. I raised the matter in debate with the minister a few days ago, and he

scoffed at me and did not give me an answer at the time. So I would now like the

minister to answer these questions: one, is the work on the Trans-Canada at

South Brook still on the plans of his department; and two, when will those plans

be executed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, the hon. member should check his mail, because

I definitely wrote and signed a letter in answer to the hon. member's question.

Will it be done this year? Absolutely not. Will it be done next year? Maybe. It

will be on consideration. I can't prejudge what's going to be done next year.

Those decisions will be made during budgetary times next year.

MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give leave that I will on tomorrow introduce the following

resolution:

WHEREAS the current policy of appointing persons to serve on

the Workers' Compensation Appeal Tribunal on a part-time basis has often

resulted in lengthy and unreasonable delays in the processing of appeals of

Workers' Compensation Act applicants and has, in many cases, caused great

hardship for these applicants; and

WHEREAS the current regulations concerning compensation of

the tribunal members who serve on a part-time basis, has enabled certain of

these members lawfully to claim and receive indefensively large amounts of

compensation; and

WHEREAS the current policy whereby tribunal members are

appointed by Cabinet and has established the basis for allegations of political

patronage and has thereby undermined public confidence that appointees are

chosen for their qualifications rather than for reasons of political patronage;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House urge the

government forthwith to introduce the requisite changes to the provincial

legislation whereby,

(1) All positions currently on the Workers' Compensation

Appeal Tribunal be terminated.

(2) The Tribunal shall henceforth consist of

three positions; (

i) a full time representative of employers, (ii) a full time

representative of employees, and (iii) a full time neutral chairperson, and the

individuals selected to serve in these three positions on the Tribunal shall be

selected and hired independently by the Public Service Commission.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act respecting the Literacy

Development Council of Newfoundland and Labrador".

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I table today for hon. members'

information regarding maintenance income for social assistance recipients which

was information asked for during the Estimates Committee on Social Services.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main.

MR. WHELAN: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure today to

stand in this hon. House and present a petition on behalf of the people of

Brigus Junction. The petition reads as follows:

`To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of

Newfoundland in Parliament assembled, a petition of the undersigned residents of

the district of Harbour Main humbly sweareth;

WHEREAS the construction season will be starting very soon

and there will be approximately one kilometre of new pavement laid from the

Trans-Canada Highway in to where the old pavement ends in Brigus Junction; and

WHEREAS with that much of the road paved there are only two

kilometres left to repave; and

WHEREAS the condition of the road is causing damage to our

vehicles;

WHEREFORE we respectfully request that government repave the

remaining two kilometres of road as soon as possible. As in duty bound, your

petitioners will ever pray.' The petition is dated May 30, 1994.

Mr. Speaker, I am very familiar with the stretch of road in

question and I certainly give my wholehearted support to the prayer of this

petition. I know that the road is in a very bad state of repair, and although

the community of Brigus Junction has a relatively small population, the traffic

load on that particular road is very heavy, because it provides access to a

number of cottage developments back in the wilderness. So in summer and winter

there's quite a heavy traffic load in that particular area.

Again, as the prayer of the petition mentions, the

construction companies will be in that area this year. They will be paving one

kilometre of road,and I would say that it's probably the most opportune time, or

will be the most opportune time in recent years or in time to come, for the

extra two kilometres to be paved.

So I would certainly encourage the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation to look on it as a top priority and I'm looking

forward to a favourable response with regard to this petition, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to support the Member for Harbour Main in his efforts

to get paving for the residents of Brigus Junction. No sweat at all only to - I

wish the member had mentioned it to me earlier because he knows where my heart

is, my heart is with the crowd wherever they are. In his efforts I hope that the

other man, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, is as sympathetic

as I am. Now, some people out our way - the Member for Bellevue had some former

residents of his living in a place called Placentia Junction. We didn't get much

sympathy last year, but that was another case. At this time I do support the

Member for Harbour Main in his efforts to make the life of his constituents a

bit better.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't know how I could possibly refuse to pave it now with

support from the hon. Member for Placentia. There must be an action now to go

ahead.

Let me say very clearly, Mr. Speaker, that one of the

problems I have as minister of the department is the amount of money I receive

in the annual Budget for the needs of people right across the Province. I have

received quite a number of requests over the past several weeks, since the

budgetary decisions were made, and if I had twice as much money at my disposal I

still wouldn't be able to come close to satisfying the requests and needs of the

people across the Province.

I do understand the petition. I received a letter from the

people in that area and also representation from their MHA, and I understand it

is just a short piece of road that needs to be done. I have to be quite honest

and clear, we don't pave roads or maintain roads in most areas when it is just

for the use of cabin owners. If government got into paving roads for cabin

owners then we would have to do every access road right across this Province,

and we would never be able to find enough money to do it.

I have asked the officials of my department to take a look at

this particular piece of road. If there are full time residents on it and if it

is the distance that has been put forth in the letter to me, I think a kilometre

or a kilometre and a half, then I will have to take a look at it. I can't make

any promises until I get the official report back, but I certainly will take an

interest in it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The

Capes.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand today and

present a petition on behalf of forty-seven people from my district, mostly the

Mount Carmel area. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland

in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned residents of the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador asks the House of Assembly to accept the

following prayer:

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador to stop immediately the privatization of Newfoundland

Hydro and hold a referendum to ask the people of the Province their views as to

whether Newfoundland Hydro should be privatized or remain a Crown corporation.

As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, once again a concerned group of citizens of the

Province, namely my district, are speaking out against the privatization of

Newfoundland Hydro. We have heard thousands of names come forward here in this

hon. House over the past number of months from people across the Province who

have more or less said, no, they don't want Hydro privatized.

I believe the government should be starting to get the

message now, Mr. Speaker, because they have hear it on open line shows, they

have heard it through petitions here in the House, they have heard it through

letters to the editor, and they have heard it through polls. We've had three

polls conducted in the Province during the past few months, Mr. Speaker, and

those polls show that upwards of 70 per cent of the people in this Province are

against the privatization of Newfoundland Hydro. Just recently the poll that was

done regarding the performance of the government, I am sure, should send a

message loud and clear to this government, that the privatization of

Newfoundland Hydro is at the heart and soul of many Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians.

Mr. Speaker, I guess one of the big concerns that has been

brought forward to me from the people in my district, is that the changes

government have proposed to education in the Province, the health care changes,

changes to ATV regulations, or whatever the case may be, if these changes don't

suit us in two or three years time we can look to changing them back, but the

big concern with the privatization of Newfoundland Hydro is that once it is

privatized, Mr. Speaker, there is no going back, it is a done deal. This, I

guess, is what has most people concerned and uptight about it.

There is a big concern also as to why the Premier and

government are intent on privatizing Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

Newfoundland Hydro right now doesn't cost the Province one dollar, it isn't a

burden to the taxpayers of this Province, and as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker,

we are making money from Hydro. It begs the question as to why the Premier and

the government are intent on privatizing this asset that we have.

Mr. Speaker, the people are concerned about who will own

Newfoundland Hydro, who will be the shareholders. I'm sure many people in this

House are fully aware that there are not too many people in this Province now

who can invest a large amount of money in the shares of Newfoundland Hydro.

There are thousands of people in this Province who are on fisheries

compensation, there are thousands more who are unemployed, there are thousands

of people who have resorted to social assistance in this Province, and none of

these people will be buying shares. The majority of the shares - I won't say all

the shares, Mr. Speaker - will be sold outside this Province and therefore the

control of Newfoundland Hydro will be outside this Province.

The Public Utilities Board, in the latest advertisements that

are being put forward, show that the Public Utilities Board will still control

electricity rates. Everybody knows that is fine when they are dealing with a

government owned operation, but once that operation of Newfoundland Hydro

becomes private property among private shareholders, and their main aim is to

make money, the Public Utilities Board won't have as much say as they have now

because a private company will come in from outside the Province. It is a

monopoly situation that the new Newfoundland Hydro will have, and the people of

the Province will have no choice but to pay whatever these people decide that we

are going to pay, Mr. Speaker.

Representing a rural area, Mr. Speaker, I think the fact that

the elimination of the rural subsidy over the next four or five years will see

major increases in rural Newfoundland's electricity rates, this will cause much

difficulty to people who are right now facing difficult times. I don't think the

people of the Province can afford to pay any more. I think with the elimination

of this rural subsidy, the people will suffer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has expired.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to stand in my place and support

the petition presented on behalf of forty-seven constituents of the District of

St. Mary's - The Capes. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier decides to go ahead with the

privatization of Newfoundland Hydro it will be just another example of the

Premier going back on his word; and the Premier certainly has a history of going

back on his word.

On March 24, the Premier went on Province-wide television and

told the people that he wouldn't or couldn't go ahead with the privatization of

Newfoundland Hydro if he could not get support for it from the public. Now we

have 68 per cent of the people of this Province definitely against the

privatization of Newfoundland Hydro.

Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said, the Premier has a history of

going back on his word. Back a few years ago when the constitutional debates

were on and they were pretty heavy across the country, the Premier of this

Province made a statement on national television, I think it was at the time,

and he said that if it came down to one province having to say no to the Meech

Lake Accord then he wouldn't be able to do that on his own, and he would have to

at least go to a referendum within the Province, and if not a referendum at

least a vote in the House of Assembly.

What happened, Mr. Speaker? Of course he decided to make the

decision all on his own and he did not have a vote in the House of Assembly.

That was the first major sign of what the Premier of this Province was up to,

and the type of individual that he really is.

Shortly after that, Mr. Speaker, around the same time, the

amalgamation issue was brought into this House. He told the people in the

Province, and he told the various municipalities, that if the people of this

Province were opposed to amalgamation it wouldn't be forced upon them. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there were a number of towns that had amalgamation forced upon them -

Petty Harbour, Wedgewood Park and a few more - but the only -

AN HON. MEMBER: The Goulds.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Goulds is another area, Mr. Speaker.

The only place that that statement applied was in his own

district where people in a few municipalities were opposed to it, and of course

they were not amalgamated.

Also, Mr. Speaker, he signed contracts with the public

service sector unions and brought legislation in to break the contracts.

Back in 1989 when the Premier of this Province and some of

the members opposite were out campaigning to get elected - and they did a good

job on it, I must say, they got elected anyway - they did make promises that

there would be no patronage appointments. That was a sin past administrations,

type of thing. What have we seen? Patronage appointments growing almost daily.

Just a couple right off the top of my head. Of course, the

former Member for Placentia, Mr. Hogan, and I think the Member for Fogo was

appointed and now he is elected to this House of Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province are losing faith in

the Premier of this Province and the government of this Province. We now see

public funds being spent, thousands and thousands, and hundreds of thousands of

dollars, on ad campaigns in the newspapers and on radio. One ad in the paper

now, I think, is $2,200 and this started last Friday. So we are going to see

that build over the summer, I would imagine.

I suppose when the Premier of the Province started reading

the facts that he had here, facts one to eight, and he saw the amount of

verbiage that was in the paper in one ad, he must have realized that the people

of the Province are not going to read that; it is too long-winded. So what did

he do? He start putting in smaller ads, eight smaller ads, Mr. Speaker, and

hopefully the public would pick up on one or two here and there. These ads, of

course, are definitely misleading - definitely misleading.

One right off the bat here, Mr. Speaker, is fact number four:

There will be no layoffs. Now, I think what we have been consistently saying -

we weren't necessarily speaking of layoffs, but we were speaking of jobs being

lost. In Nova Scotia the history showed that over 400 jobs have gone. The

Premier of this Province himself has said that there are going to be jobs lost

in the transition. So what do we see now? The Premier coming out, or the

government at least coming out, and making statements that there will be no job

losses. Definitely misleading, Mr. Speaker!

Fact number five says: Hydro remains a Newfoundland company.

It actually states here, quite blatantly: A share purchase will be limited by

legislation to a maximum of 20 per cent for any one individual or company. Now,

Mr. Speaker, how misleading can that be when we have already seen Bill No. 2 go

through this House and it gives the Public Utilities Board the right to allow an

individual or a company to obtain more than 20 per cent of the shares of the new

Hydro.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, could we deal with Motions 4

and 5 - those are first readings - then we will go on to the second reading of

Bill No. 23, which is Order 17. It stands in the name of my friend, the Minister

of Industry, Trade and Technology.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce

a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Workers Association Act," carried. (Bill No.

26)

On motion, Bill No. 26 read a first time, ordered read a

second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion 5.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act

(No. 2)," carried. (Bill No. 27)

On motion, Bill No. 27 read a first time, ordered read a

second time on tomorrow.

MR. ROBERTS: Order 17, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 17.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Incorporate The

Grand Concourse Authority". (Bill No. 23).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I want to just take a couple of

minutes, if I could, to introduce this piece of legislation. I can't say that I

can take credit for this. This has mostly been done by my predecessor, who will

speak shortly for a few minutes on it, but I do want to say in introduction that

I think everybody in this Province ought to be extremely proud of the Johnson

family, and the Johnson Foundation which they have set up using their own

dollars, Mr. Speaker, to make a contribution and give something back to the

cultural life of our city and our Province. In particular I would like to note

Paul Johnson, who is the president of -

MR. ROBERTS: Dr. Paul Johnson.

MR. FUREY: Dr. Paul Johnson -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: - who was just given an honourary degree by

our university. It is quite a tribute to him and to his family, and he is quite

a tribute to our Province. Indeed, this particular act comes into being because

the Johnson family have established this foundation. The whole purpose of it is

to foster, promote and enable the design, development and operation of a system

of integrated walkways in and around the St. John's metropolitan area, and that

includes, of course, parts of Mount Pearl and Paradise.

My friend from Waterford - Kenmount, my member of the House

of Assembly who was the former Mayor of Mount Pearl, I think mentioned to me

yesterday that it touches out into Paradise, parts of Mount Pearl, but in the

main it is throughout the City of St. John's.

This act will allow a number of memberships to participate in

the Grand Concourse Authority, various departments and agencies of government. I

know Tourism and Culture will fully participate, will allow for the

participation of municipalities, corporations, groups and various organizations.

In terms of funding, all members of the authority will be

asked for financial contributions based upon their organization, as well as

contributions in kind; things like land, labour and equipment, those kinds of

things.

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to tell you as well, that Treasury

Board and Cabinet just recently approved $100,000 for this corporation to be

spread over a three-year period. We just issued the first cheque, in fact, last

week for $35,000. It will be core funding for The Grand Concourse Authority and

that will represent all government departments and agencies that will sit on

this authority.

Other members of the authority are Memorial University, the

Town of Paradise, the Pippy Park Commission, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, Parks Canada has agreed to join it, St. John's Port Corporation,

the Virginia River Conservation Society, Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford

River - I guess FLOW is the acronym there - and the Johnson Family Foundation.

We anticipate that in a short while St. John's, of course, will come in and

become a member. In my informal discussions with some people there, that should

be around mid-June.

So the next steps are to formalize the incorporation, seek

out the various approvals and permits from the city, and implement the projects

this year. The projects this year will be the lake to lookout, Quidi Vidi Lake

to Signal Hill, Kelly's Brook and a construction of a little rest at Quidi Vidi

Lake.

So, Mr. Speaker, I think the bill is fairly straightforward.

I know some other members wanted to speak about it. I think it is a very good

thing for the city. I think all of us in this Assembly and people everywhere

throughout the Province certainly would want to tip their hat to the Johnson

family, to Dr. Paul Johnson in particular and to the Johnson Family Foundation.

So with those few words, I would introduce first reading, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will have a few words on this, as the critic for the hon.

member. I do believe a number of my colleagues who have a more direct interest

in and around metropolitan St. John's, Mount Pearl, et cetera, might wish to

speak on this in some greater detail.

I reviewed the legislation, Mr. Speaker, and there is nothing

untoward in it. In the early part of it, I had some concern as to whether or not

we were setting up a heavy-handed bureaucratic mechanism, but I see in the

latter stages, especially

Section 13, there are some limits on the ability of

this particular authority to really be heavy-handed in dealing with people,

their property, their land, et cetera. So for the most

part it is not an onerous

body in terms of an impact on the metropolitan St. John's area.

Mr. Speaker, I guess congratulations are in order for the

Johnson Family Foundation and other private and public sector bodies,

corporations, organizations, etcetera, who wish to become involved, or are

already involved in this. It is obviously a matter of, I would think, some

enlightened self-interest and probably some enlightened community interest. No

doubt, if these matters are taken to fruition, there will some improvements in

the environment and the aesthetics of the general metropolitan region, probably

enhancing the tourism potential of the area and therefore adding possibly some

positive economic benefits for the general metropolitan area.

Mr. Speaker, giving congratulations where it's due, I must

say that this appears to be at least, one of the shining stars of the economic

program of the Wells administration; an economic program, Mr. Speaker, which to

say the least leaves me somewhat underwhelmed. The Wells administration, in

terms of economic development, has put in place a number of structures,

mechanisms - be they the recovery commission or Enterprise Newfoundland and

Labrador - which are essentially, Mr. Speaker, organizational matters,

structural things. But, in essence, the government through its economic

departments and its general economic philosophy has been content to preside over

the management of decline in our economy. It has been content to preside over

the cutback of many government services and programs; generally speaking, to

manage an ever shrinking pie.

The government has proven itself to be brutally efficient at

tearing down, totally inadequate, totally found wanting, in the matters of

economic building. Rebuilding the Economic Recovery Commission, Mr. Speaker,

which is supposedly one of the leading lights of the economic program of this

particular administration, has turned out to be little more than a joke. We see

lots of studies, lots of fancy booklets, pamphlets, etcetera, but for the most

part we have to rely on the citizenship of certain individuals, certain

corporations and community organizations to fill the gap, as is the case in this

particular bill, Mr. Speaker.

The government, having found itself to be totally devoid of

ideas, totally devoid of economic development, economic strategy, is content to

pay economic strategy considerable lip service, considerable public relations

time, but for the most part, is dependent on people, individuals, companies, and

corporations outside its ambit to do its job for it. Those people, as I

indicated earlier, are to be congratulated, Mr. Speaker, and their interest in

the well being of the community is well founded.

As I indicated earlier, Mr. Speaker, my confidence in the

economic program of the Wells administration has not changed; if anything it has

fallen off. Generally speaking, the performance of the Wells administration,

certainly in matters relating to the Department of the hon. Minister of

Industry, Trade and Technology, leaves one, as I indicated earlier, more than

slightly underwhelmed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to rise and say a

few words on Bill 23, "An Act to Incorporate The Grand Concourse Authority."

I'd like to compliment the Johnson family and in particular

Dr. Paul Johnson on the initiative that he's put into this Grand Concourse. I

remember meeting with the Johnson family and the group a few years ago when I

was mayor of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove and saw the plans at that point

in time for the Grand Concourse. I remember them being very imaginative and very

ambitious at that point in time, Mr. Speaker, and I was certainly impressed with

the plan. I thought that it would have some great potential for tourism in St.

John's and around St. John's, and I certainly support that of course.

The Grand Concourse, the plan, from my memory, that would

hook up a lot of the walking trails in St. John's, the trail around Quidi Vidi

Lake, the Rennies Mill trail and the trails up around Signal Hill, Mr. Speaker.

Actually now, out in the northeast, out in the Clovelly subdivision out in that

area, the people who are designing the subdivision are putting in trails out

there which could all be hooked into the Grand Concourse.

Mr. Speaker, I have some ideas myself with respect to that

type of thing on the Northeast Avalon and I've been promoting this within my

town and other towns down in the St. John's East Extern. When I was mayor in

Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove, I was trying to get a trail up along the

Outer Cove River, similar to the Rennies Mill trail, and out around Red Cliff to

hook into the trails in and around St. John's. It wasn't successful at the time,

but that is still on my mind and it is something I will be promoting in the

future.

The town of Torbay has a very nice trail now, Mr. Speaker,

around the harbour of Torbay, and that trail is along the old road that was

there before Torbay Road and the road going down to Pouch Cove. It was the old

road that connected the communities in Torbay, Outer Cove and Flatrock. It is

right along the cliffs, and it is a beautiful walk, if anybody ever decided to

get down our way and take a walk on that trail.

I think something like this could be actually promoted to

cover the whole northeast Avalon and maybe the whole Avalon Peninsula, and have

certain sections marked off and stops along the way for hikers. You could have

chalets or you could have bed-and-breakfasts along the trail. As it now stands,

people can leave the St. John's and Logy Bay boundary and go right to Pouch Cove

and there is neither spot or bed-and-breakfast in the whole area, type of thing,

Mr. Speaker. So all this could be a part of the grand concourse in future years,

not just be restricted to the City of St. John's.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell

Island.

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to take a few minutes to say that I'm very

pleased with the fact that the act for the grand concourse has come forward

today.

I would like to join with other members today who have

congratulated the Johnson family foundation, and indeed Dr. Paul Johnson, for

his initiative in dealing with this particular grand concourse scheme. I met

with the Johnson family foundation many months ago when they were hoping to

bring this whole project to its fruition, and I'm very pleased today to see that

they have finally reached a point where the grand concourse will now become an

act and a bill from this House of Assembly. The $100,000 given and committed by

the government over the next three years I believe is something that the

foundation did require in order to allow them to carry out the various aspects

of the project that they wished to carry out.

The idea of having an integrated walkway throughout

metropolitan St. John's I think is one that will allow us to not only enjoy the

city and the surrounding areas to their fullest, but it will also give us the

quiet areas that all cities require and need for our own piece of mind and our

enjoyment. I believe that the idea behind the grand concourse will also serve as

yet another tourism generator for this area. It is yet another aspect in terms

of the people who come here, the things that they can enjoy, and the areas that

they can enjoy throughout the city.

The Johnson family are to be congratulated for their

commitment. Indeed, one of the first initiatives I understand that they will be

participating in, which is a part of the grand concourse, will be a series of

historic boards that will be placed throughout the region as well. My

understanding is that the first historic board will be placed just inside the

gates at Government House and it will give a history of that particular area. I

believe there are some ten to fifteen such historic boards planned throughout

the grand concourse, and I believe that these themselves will give reasons for

tourists, and indeed people who live within the city and surrounding areas, to

enjoy the grand concourse.

Once again I want to join with the other members of the House

of Assembly today in congratulating the Johnson family, and indeed Paul Johnson,

for their tenacity and their perseverance, and by all means of course, their

initiative to see this come about.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is with pleasure I join in supporting this legislation at

second reading. In doing so I would like to spend a little time talking about

how important I think initiatives of this sort are. It is one of those things,

Mr. Speaker, that doesn't necessarily by itself cost a lot of money right away,

but what it does is provide an incentive and an initiative that will generate a

tremendous amount of activity by municipalities, by individuals, by volunteer

groups, by advocacy groups and by others to recognize and enhance our own urban

environment and the surrounding areas to the point that we have new respect for

our cities, our communities, and the values that are inherent in the space

around us, a new respect, I suppose, or self-respect for the place in which we

live.

This idea of incorporating the Grand Concourse Authority

really caps a number of efforts by more than one individual, although Paul

Johnson deserves a great deal of credit for bringing this to a coalescent force.

Many individuals and groups in the last number of years in and around the City

of St. John's have started what could really be called a movement in recognizing

the value of our space, our rivers, our urban rivers, the kind of thing that

some people would do on a Sunday afternoon just going for a walk around the

hills or areas around St. John's.

We have seen the development of the Quidi Vidi-Rennies River

Foundation,which has provided marked and well- dressed walkways along the banks

of the Quidi Vidi River from Long Pond down to the ocean. There is tremendous

interest in St. John's in that. An awful lot of people got involved in the

foundation, in supporting the foundation. As Member of Parliament for St. John's

East, I was quite enthusiastic in supporting, where I could, efforts of that

association to get some grants to build that walkway, to provide, while they

were doing it, landscaping training to individuals who wanted to work on those

projects.

Some of them are now involved in the landscape business.

Other organizations such as FLOW, which was mentioned by the minister, the

Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford River - another organization. I was at

their annual meeting the other night and they are a very enthusiastic core group

of individuals who have been active for the last number of years. Do you know

there were fifty people who came to an annual meeting of a volunteer

organization that is interested in the protection of a river system in the West

End of St. John's, which is a very important historic and environmental

resource.

Fifty people came out, Mr. Speaker, because they were

interested in that project and what they were trying to do to revitalize and

clean up the Waterford River system.

MR. TULK: Where is all that (inaudible)?

MR. HARRIS: I think it is a marvellous idea, and I say to

the Member for Fogo, the fact that fifty people came to a public meeting for

that is a wonderful thing. It shows how interested people are in this kind of

idea and project. There is an awful lot of work that has to be done in taking on

a job such as the enhancement of an urban river. There is an incredible amount

of pollution, debris, junk, and even sewer outfalls still flowing into a river

like the Waterford River in St. John's.

This organization has done a terrific amount of work, not

only cleaning it up themselves, but getting industrial concerns such as

Newfoundland Light and Power, who, over the last couple of years, have removed

seventy or eighty tons of debris which had been dumped into the river or on the

river bank, closing in the river. There is an industrial park through which this

river flows; it flows through the municipality of Mount Pearl. This organization

has been very active, for example, in encouraging cities like the City of Mount

Pearl in responding to the needs of the river system in looking at their

development plans for particular subdivisions, and, in fact, have been

successful in helping developers realize that their plans may encroach upon the

particular river, and have therefore become sensitized to that issue and have,

in fact, changed their plans voluntarily and were pleased to have a group like

the Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford River to advise them of the concerns

and of what kinds of consequences their plans were having on others.

We have seen this group and others advocate against, for

example, the placing of the Department of National Defence facility on the bank

of the Waterford River, down at the west end of Water Street. They were

successful in doing that because of the 100-year flood plain, of the river. That

has been put on hold, hopefully forever.

These kinds of organizations are also involved in the

developing of what they are now calling, for that particular river system, a

linear park. They are talking about a linear park running from the head of the

harbour, along the banks of the Waterford River, through Mount Pearl. It is a

new concept, one I never head of before, a linear park. This will be a park that

is not going to be a big, round park. It may only be as wide as the river, and a

boundary on either side, but this will be a park and the park will run through

Mount Pearl, Paradise, St. John's, and be protected.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: The minister missed my comments on FLOW - as

I was saying, I was at the annual meeting the other night, and even for an

annual meeting of an organization like that, there were fifty people there who

were all there to encourage the work of FLOW.

This linear park concept will be part of the Grand Concourse

that is going on, and it has a tremendous number of effects. The minister, in

his speech, indicated that FLOW would be one of the members of the authority and

that the City of St. John's may be coming in some time later on. This is second

reading of the bill, so we are not into the detail of it yet, but perhaps when I

get his attention next I will continue on.

The minister mentions that organizations such as FLOW are

doing great work, and they are, and the minister, in his opening remarks,

indicated that FLOW would be one of the members of the organization, and that

the City of St. John's may be coming in a little later. I would wonder, then,

why the City of St. John's is named as a member in the act, but FLOW isn't.

Perhaps when we get to third reading, the organizations that have already

committed themselves to participating in the process could be named in the

legislation, itself.

You mentioned the Virginia River Conservation Authority, the

Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford River, another. They are not named here

Section 4.2 of the act, which says who are the members named by the

legislation, itself. Others can come in afterwards. I would suggest that the

minister would recognize the interest and involvement of organizations such as

the Quidi Vidi-Rennies River Development Foundation, which I don't see here on

the list. The Friends and Lobbyists of the Waterford River are another, and the

Virginia River Conservation Association, another. These organizations have been

as much, if not more, of an influence on the development of this Grand Course

Authority than places such as Memorial University of Newfoundland, which has

just become involved in some aspects of the Grand Concourse.

I think it's a terrific piece of legislation. It is one that

is not absolutely necessary to make these things happen, but it does give a

terrific sense of this being a provincially recognized project. It is going to,

as it develops, encourage other groups to develop not only in St. John's but in

other parts of the Province.

I think the Member for St. John's East Extern has already

mentioned that in his own district, in the town of Torbay, there are trail-ways

that people know about but haven't really been officially recognized or

designated as such. I know, in the town of Flatrock there is a great deal of

interest in finding ways of protecting their river system running through

Flatrock and providing for trails. There is a lot of work being done and a

concern being expressed by groups outside of St. John's about rivers running

through or near their towns and trying to enhance those rivers.

One of the most exciting ideas that I've heard recently is

the proposal by FLOW, for example, to re-introduce a salmon run into the

Waterford River. Now, that may sound like a joke to people who were forced to

stop swimming in the Bowring Park swimming pool because of pollution, which

happened in my lifetime. When we were kids we used to swim in the Bowring Park

swimming pool, a municipal pool that was closed down because of pollution. Now,

there is going to be the re-introduction of salmon into that river system and I

think that is a terrific and exciting idea which is going to only increase

people's awareness of our living environment around us.

I would have to say that the Grand Concourse idea, the idea

of linking together the work of the various groups around St. John's who are

interested in their own area or their own river, the linking together of those

groups has to be credited to Paul Johnson and the Johnson Family Foundation. I

said in the House here before, on the occasion of the opening of the Signal Hill

lookout project that was financed directly by the Johnson Family Foundation,

that it is a great credit to him to take on this work and to contribute not only

his money, but his time and energy and knowledge to this project.

I've met him on a number of occasions and discussed his

proposal. I've met with people who have been hired by him, architects and

designers and planners, to bring together this idea and - I was going to say,

sell the idea, but I don't think the idea had to be sold. It did have to be

presented, and what he did was put together the elements of that show and

demonstrate a design and how it could work. Once it was presented and once

people had a chance to look at it, I think it sold itself. The credit for taking

the initiative and presenting this to the people of St. John's and to the

institutions and organizations of government, credit goes to Paul Johnson and to

his family whose money was being used to create the initiative. That credit is

there.

We don't have enough - as I said before in this House -

philanthropists in this Province, people who have made a great deal of wealth

working in this Province or having business in this Province who are willing, as

a public gesture, to turn money back to this Province. We have very few. There

are one or two seats or chairs, they call them, at the University. I think the

donations to a library at the University. But there are very few public

buildings, for example, that we have donated by individuals who've earned great

wealth from the Province and from their work here. We see the Johnson Family

Foundation hopefully starting a tradition, as well, for others who are in such a

position.

I say, Mr. Speaker, that this particular piece of

legislation, while not involving a great deal of expenditure of public funds,

will bring together an idea that has a tremendous potential for having offshoots

of activity and initiative by numerous groups and citizens and other

organizations throughout the region. It has a great deal of potential, as well,

for awakening people's awareness to the needs and the possible potential of

working together to enhance the environment in which we live, to encourage this

particular type of development and, to encourage the kind of activity that has

been happening with the particular river conservation groups, the abatement of

pollution.

One exciting project that I've heard and this is peripheral

to the Grand Concourse, although the Grand Concourse will go past it, is a

proposal to reopen in Victoria Park, St. John's West, the Victoria Park Cascades

Falls - a river that was culverted in back in the 1970s, because I gather it was

regarded as some sort of nuisance for children possibly falling into it - but

opening up a falls which still exists under the ground, a series of falls known

as the Cascades, in which fish actually jump this falls underneath the ground,

culverted in, closed off right now. There is a proposal, over the next number of

years to open up this particular culverted area, and to expose, once again, this

falls and the original river bank that's still there. These kinds of ideas

create a great deal of interest and enjoyment of our surroundings here in St.

John's, in the city and in the surrounding areas. It makes it a more pleasant

place to live and to visit. When people talk about tourism - I know, when you go

to a city like Boston, you can't get away from hearing about the Constitution

Walk. The Constitution Walk takes you all around Boston, goes past a number of

historic buildings and sites,

interpretation centres along the way, museums that

you can visit, art galleries and various other things like that.

The former minister, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island

mentioned that along the Grand Concourse route there are planned, as ideas,

having historic - they call them historic boards, and my image was that of a

number of individuals sitting around a table along the route discussing the

history of a particular place, but I think he's talking about sign-ways and

perhaps historic notices being set out giving a history of particular places or

areas along the route. I think that's also very valuable, not only for tourists

but also for young people and old people in the city of St. John's to realize

the historical aspects of all of this.

I was waiting for the minister to come back. I understood he

wanted to respond to the various comments before we go to the vote. I see

another member wishes to speak, so with that, Mr. Speaker, I'll end my remarks

and say that I fully, wholeheartedly support the legislation being brought

forth. With those comments, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this piece of

legislation and to also offer my congratulations to the Johnson Foundation who

have taken some initiative here in putting together this particular concept and

contributing significant amounts of money from the family trust towards this

particular project.

It is a tremendous concept that will be of great benefit to

the whole region. I suppose I speak from personal experience, having grown up on

the banks of Rennies River, in fact. I recall as a young lad I caught many, many

quite large trout from Rennies River. I learned to swim, just about, in Rennies

River and, in fact, I'll say this, I learned to play hockey on Rennies River. It

used to freeze over in those days. I suppose winters were colder than they are

now; but I played many, many hours of hockey on Rennies River. So I have first

hand knowledge of what it used to be like and what it should be like in the

future from a cleanliness and environmental point of view, but from an aesthetic

point of view I think it is being improved already.

My friend, the Member for St. John's East is gone. I wanted

to point out to him that he is a little bit late in some of his comments. Oh

there he is, good, he's there. He's a little bit late when he says the linear

park concept is a new concept.

MR. HARRIS: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Right. Well, I say to him, he's missed the

boat somewhere along the way. The linear park concept, as it relates to the

Waterford River, was started by the Rotary Club of Waterford Valley about

thirteen or fourteen years ago, a club of which I'm a chartered member, and

we've put millions of dollars into the linear park concept of the Waterford

Valley. So it's not a new concept. Now, that doesn't take away -

AN HON. MEMBER: The first time I heard (inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: When we did it, yes. I'm sorry, I understood

you said this was the first time you heard it now.

We have been involved in that for quite some time and I

wanted to take this opportunity to put on the record the fact that the Rotary

Club of Waterford Valley has done a tremendous job in that regard in that

particular area, but has not taken a lot of credit for it, has not asked - as

Rotary Clubs do not take credit for many things that they do, unfortunately.

Sometimes, when we go around as I did this week to my colleagues selling tickets

to do some fund-raising for some of these projects that we do, I often have to

say: Here are some of the projects that we've been involved in. Because Rotary

Clubs quite often don't take any credit and don't ask for credit.

I do want to take this opportunity to say a word of

congratulation to my home club, and particularly, Don Osmond, who is an employee

of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, and who has been the chairman

of our committee responsible for all of the work that has been done on the

Waterford Valley over those years. He has almost single-handedly managed the

project, hired on the staff every summer. Let me say that we've created, I think

up as high as fifteen or sixteen jobs for students during the summer months. In

fact, we can document that. We have slide shows from every year showing the work

that was done before and after. We could, if members were interested, put

together quite a detailed presentation. I think you would be extremely impressed

at the work that was accomplished using largely make-work funds, as we refer to

them, student employment programs. Whatever was available that we were able to

access, we accessed, and used money extremely well. It is a very worthwhile

purpose for that type of thing and created jobs and it has been of significant

benefit.

So there has been a major cleanup. It is not just the Rotary

Club of Waterford Valley - let me be quick to add that the City of Mount Pearl,

the City of St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and many

private supporters, construction companies and so forth, have donated goods or

services to the project over the years. So, Mr. Speaker, it is a tremendous

project.

Tied in with that, I wanted to point out, is that in the city

of Mount Pearl, itself, we already have a tremendous linear park network

throughout the whole city, built and developed as part of the expansion area of

Mount Pearl, including waterways. Every waterway within the city has been

retained, it has been upgraded, beautified, and is part of a park system that

runs throughout, including a system of trailways, so that in the newer area of

Mount Pearl, you can literally walk to any shopping centre or any school without

crossing any highway whatsoever. All of the major collector arterial roads have

pedestrian underpasses constructed. I think there are probably perhaps a dozen

in Mount Pearl already constructed - quite good pedestrian underpasses so that

students going to school or going to a play area or shopping area do not have to

cross the highways. That is all part of the linear park concept.

This is the kind of thing that will be tied in with the Grand

Concourse. At the moment, the City of Mount Pearl is not part of this authority.

I'm told that the main reason the City opted out at the moment is that all of

their resources are being put into the Waterford Valley project and that they do

not at this time want to commit energy or funds into the Grand Concourse

concept. But no doubt they will and they must and they should be part of it all

in due course.

I am pleased to see that this concept is being put in place

and that renewed emphasis will be put on it. I should have mentioned, as well,

in talking about the Waterford Valley, that the Friends and Lobbyists of the

Waterford Valley have done tremendous work as well. Again, they are latecomers

as it relates to Rotary, but they have given that added dimension of bringing in

other volunteers with a much broader scope, and being able to take on a much

larger project, and have perhaps accessed more funding, and speed up the work

that is being done.

I'm pleased to see that it is a separate authority. I have to

say - not to take away whatsoever from this overall concept, but I have to say I

am pleased that it is not a City of St. John's authority, particularly in view

of the last two or three days when I'm hearing all of these concepts now of city

employees having to live in the city of St. John's - which doesn't affect me

whatsoever, but I suspect, from a human rights point of view, some of those

employees may want to challenge that.

I am concerned, let me say, about the new local preference

concepts coming into the city of St. John's. I ask the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, if he were listening. If somebody could wake up the Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs down there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: He is not listening. Mr. Speaker, can I get

the attention of the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs? I'm trying to

get - now, the minister is finally free and he is paying attention. I say to the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, I just spoke about the employment

concept, or requirements in the city of St. John's, where employees are now

being told they have to live in the city of St. John's, which I have some

problem with, and I think maybe some of the employees will question, from a

human rights points of view, but I also have real questions as it relates to the

local preference policy that the City is now looking at, where they are

providing a 5 per cent preference.

I ask the minister: Has he checked with the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation, who is responsible for the Public Tender

Act, whether or not municipalities have the right and authority to come in with

local preference.

MR. EFFORD: They don't now.

MR. WINDSOR: They do not is right, and I thank the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation for confirming what I knew. I

thank him for confirming that.

Would the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs now

tell me, if he has not, will he very soon, advise the City of St. John's that

they do not have the authority to adopt such a by-law that is totally

discriminatory, and will the City of St. John's wake up and find out that the

City of St. John's, whether they like it or not, depends for its economic

viability on the whole Province of Newfoundland and Labrador? Will they stop

this nonsense of wanting to put toll gates at the entrance to the city of St.

John's?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WINDSOR: Will they stop being so narrow-minded,

parochial, and childish, and get on with the business of running the city, and

stop being so silly about these sorts of concepts - 5 per cent local preference.

Do they not realize that residents of Mount Pearl, and the residents of the rest

of the Province, spend their money in St. John's? Do they not want us to come

into the Village Shopping Centre, and the Avalon Mall, and the O'Leary Avenue

Industrial Park, and Water Street? Do they not want Confederation Building and

Memorial University and thousands of government offices, in the City of St.

John's? If they don't want us, we will move them away.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WINDSOR: I have never heard of anything so foolish as

the attitude of the City of St. John's, so I ask the minister: Will he please

advise the City that they do not legally have the right to pass such a local

preference policy, and will they please put it to bed and get on with the

business of running the city, which is what they were elected to do?

Mr. Speaker, with those few comments, let me once again

congratulate the Johnson family, and all of the groups and organizations that

are now involved with this concept, or that will be involved with the concept,

that are not yet part of it. I recommend it. I recommend it highly, and they are

all to be congratulated for the role they are playing.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Pleasantville.

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am rising to congratulate the government, the minister,

Paul Johnson, and the other people responsible for devising the Grand Concourse

proposal.

Before I say anything further, if I might, on that, I would

like also to say, in response to what the Member for Mount Pearl has said, that

I don't have a concern about people from Mount Pearl working in the city of St.

John's. In fact, my concern is that they don't live in the city of St. John's. I

would like to see them all living in the city of St. John's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: And see them making an appropriate contribution

to the cost of running the city of St. John's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: As the member has said, the St. John's region

does pretty well by this Province, but there are many individuals in the St.

John's region who don't do pretty well, who do not share in the fishery

adjustment programs, who do not get a proper - the City doesn't get a proper

share or a proper contribution from the other levels of government in the cost

of the infrastructure programs that are being announced now.

The residents of St. John's pay much higher municipal taxes

than the residents of Mount Pearl and other surrounding communities, and that is

very onerous for particular individuals in our city, and if the Member for Mount

Pearl wants to talk about people living off surrounding communities, I suggest

that the Member for Mount Pearl is an expert in that area, because nobody lives

off surrounding communities more than the community of Mount Pearl does.

MR. WINDSOR: Oh, what garbage!

MR. NOEL: It is not garbage. You would have no Donovans

Industrial Park if it wasn't for the surrounding communities that make it

viable, but who don't get a share in the revenues that it generates.

Mr. Speaker, I didn't mean to get into discussing municipal

affairs in responding to this bill.

Paul Johnson is a man I had an opportunity to begin working

with back in the 1970s, when I was the President of the Downtown Development

Corporation and he was the President of I think it was the Newfoundland Heritage

Foundation, and we got involved in trying to initiate some activities to develop

downtown St. John's. And I would say that Mr. Johnson and many of the people who

are involved in that organization contributed a great deal of their own time and

effort to help achieve what it has achieved over the past decade or fifteen

years.

I find a particular involvement with the Grand Concourse in

an indirect kind of way through my involvement with the Virginia River

Conservation Society, which I had the opportunity to participate in helping set

up several years ago. Members might know that the Virginia River is part of the

Grand Concourse which is being established to provide a park-like setting around

the whole city and eventually, if it reaches its objectives, people will be able

to work around the whole city through the Grand Concourse. So I think it is a

great attraction for our city, for residents, for tourists and visitors alike.

The people with whom I have been most involved are the people

involved with the Virginia River Conservation Society and, in particular, Mr.

Ken Hannaford and Ms. Cindy Murray, who give practically all of their time

raising money and doing things to help develop the Virginia River; and

incidentally, we have some problems in the Virginia River that I am in the

process of discussing with our Minister of Environment and Lands and our

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

We have a tremendous environmental problem down off the Logy

Bay Road and in the Rutledge Crescent area and, whatever the source of the

problem, there is a lot of unacceptable material being emptied into the Virginia

River and destroying a lot of the work of the people who are giving so much. Not

only the people, but the governments as well, both levels of government, are

contributing funding to the enhancement of the Virginia River, but

unfortunately, the river is being polluted by certain problems down in that area

which I hope the Minister of Environment and Lands and the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation will endeavour to do more about in the near future.

I might also say, Mr. Speaker, that the Virginia River

Conservation Society will be holding its annual meeting on June 7, and I would

recommend that any members who are available take it in; it will be down at the

Foran Room in City Hall.

I am glad to see that while the members of the Virginia River

Conservation Society and FLOW and the Quidi Vidi-Rennies River Development

Foundation are not included directly in the formation of the Grand Concourse

Authority. There is provision made for their inclusion at a later stage, I

think, in

section 3 of clause 4 of the bill, and I hope that we see a number of

these organizations given an opportunity to play a meaningful role in the

organization; so, Mr. Speaker, I again congratulate all of the people involved,

and there have been many hundreds of people involved in all of these

organizations, who have done so much for so many years to help accomplish this

and I am glad to see that government has responded to their efforts.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, thank you very much.

I just wanted to have a couple of comments on this bill, "An

Act To Incorporate The Grand Concourse Authority", and I will keep my comments

relatively brief because I do understand that there are other items on the

Orders of the Day that we have planned to deal with.

Mr. Speaker, I want first of all to compliment the Johnson

family; I have been familiar with this proposal for the last several years and

have attended many meetings where this matter was discussed and where the

proposals were developed. One of the things that we all give recognition to in

the last few years is the significant development in the parkways, a growing

consciousness of the need to enhance the environment, our commitment to the

Green Plan, and, Mr. Speaker, what we see here is citizen initiative. I should

point out to all hon. members, as other members have, that this particular

proposal was developed by the private sector. It is a significant proposal that

is developed to permit all residents of the St. John's region to be able to show

their voluntarism, to be able to show their commitment to the environment. It

permits the corporate sector to get involved. It permits the private sector to

be involved in funding. Also, it focuses attention.

Whether it is through FLOW and the Waterford River, whether

it is through the developments of the shoreline along the Quidi Vidi area, or

whether it is a commitment to the railway lands that are in this region,

whatever we have, it shows that people are now aware of and want cities and

other municipalities to develop their open spaces and to show commitment to the

protection of them.

One of the things that we have seen in the last few years is

that there is a growing level of awareness. Citizens want to be able to see part

of nature from their own backyards. As my colleague, the Member for Mount Pearl

has pointed out, in Mount Pearl there is a grand variety of walkways. In fact,

there is about thirty-six kilometres of paved walkway. That would make it the

greatest, I suppose, number or the greatest commitment to walkways in the whole

Province.

I should point out, as well, that a study that was done some

time ago, done when I was the mayor of Mount Pearl, asked people: What is the

most significant thing that makes you feel part of your municipality? The

response came back. Eighty-eight per cent of the people identified recreation,

commitment to recreation, and lifestyle. What was surprising to all of us who

were sitting on council at that time was that so many people were able to

identify recreation and beautification as the reasons why they wanted to live in

their particular municipality.

So, Mr. Speaker, I want to compliment the Johnson family, I

want to give them every encouragement to continue, and I want, as well, to give

encouragement to all the volunteers who have been involved in this project and

who will be involved in the years to come.

I also say to the minister, as I said to him yesterday, that

this kind of development tells us all that we have to do all we can to protect

the railway bed right across this Province. As I said yesterday to the minister

in our conversation, I would like for the minister to make a renewed commitment

in his concluding remarks that the railway bed across this Province will

continue to be forever a recreational piece of land. The concepts that are in

the Grand Concourse for the St. John's region, we can have that extended and

have a Grand Concourse right across the Province. We can have the kind of

commitment from the government that we will not permit developers or the

citizens to encroach on the railway land.

I have to say, as well, that I was very disturbed some time

ago when I found out that we had people going on the railway land and picking up

the crushed stone. We had people who were digging it up and putting, I suppose

you would call it, water lines or whatever across it, not restoring it properly.

There was one case, I was told, of where we had dump trucks using the railway

bed for a roadway. And while that might be the shortest route to get from point

A to point B, if we let that happen as a Province, then we are going to destroy

a tremendous asset that this Province has. As a person who has promoted

recreation for many, many years - I don't profess to be an athlete, not at all,

but I have been a member of the Canadian Parks and Recreation for more than

twenty years, and I say to hon. members that whatever we can do to make sure

that the railway bed in this Province is protected from downtown St. John's at

the harbour front right to Port aux Basques, then we have to make sure that it

is. We have to treat aggressively any persons, or groups of persons,

corporations, or municipalities, that want to do anything to destroy the

integrity of the railway bed of this Province. Because while the Grand Concourse

is great for St. John's, I would like to see the concept of the Grand Concourse

put right across this Province from St. John's to Port aux Basques.

Mr. Speaker, in concluding, I want to simply say that this is

a noble concept and to compliment the Johnson family. They have shown the

leadership, and I trust that the City of St. John's will integrate this concept

into their municipal master plan, thereby giving greater protection to make sure

it becomes an integrated part of the entire municipal recreation master plan for

the city of St. John's which will be in part, then, part of the City of St.

John's Municipal Plan.

Mr. Speaker, with these words, I congratulate the minister

and all the work he has done to make this development possible.

MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes

the debate.

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, thank you, and I thank all hon.

members who spoke in this debate for their kind words about the Johnson family

and the Johnson Foundation. I think the hon. the Member for St. John's East had

a question briefly about

section 4, subsection (2) but I have had an opportunity

to discuss it with him privately and he seems satisfied.

I hear my friend, the Member for Mount Pearl speak about this

local preference tax and I can only concur with his comments. Everywhere around

the world they were stripping down barriers, taking down preferences and opening

up the markets for free and open movement. It seems illogical to go the other

way, and I can only concur with his very intelligent remarks in that regard.

My friend, the Member for Waterford - Kenmount and my member

in the House of Assembly made some very good points. I should say to him though

that Cabinet has moved in a very vigorous way to protect the integrity of the

rail bed from St. John's all the way through to Port aux Basques. I keep hearing

these stories on CBC, a fellow Goulding from the West Coast talking about people

taking bits and pieces and abusing the site. What is his name?

AN HON. MEMBER: Otto.

MR. FUREY: Yes, Otto Goulding, who was with the rural

development movement, I believe.

I don't know what the problem is because Cabinet has moved.

We have put in place an order that nobody is to remove, tamper, be negligent

with, or touch, the entire rail bed. I call upon him and others, if they see

people doing that, to report it to the authorities immediately.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: The only people who should be there are those

who have authority, and have been given authority, by the Government of the

Province. We want to protect the integrity of that linear park from St. John's

to Port aux Basques. We can only deal with abuse if people tell us about abuse,

and if people tell me about abuse, I assure you, we will move in swiftly and

forcefully to stop it, because we see the great economic and tourism potential

of this linear park.

However, having said that,Cabinet has to wrestle with some

very complex issues, least of which is the capital cost to improve that linear

park across the Province. Some approximations are anywhere from $30 to $40

million. Well, where do we get that money to make those improvements? Secondly,

the maintenance cost of maintaining the property right across that stretch of

land is somewhere between $4 and $8 million, depending upon whose figures you

deal with.

The third very complex issue is one of liability. What

happens if someone is hurt on it? Who is responsible if there is a fatality or

an accident? So it is not as easy as some people almost gleefully, simplisticly

put forward on these radio press releases every now and then. What is the

Province doing? Why aren't they protecting it? Well, the fact of the matter is,

it is a protected area. It has been sanctioned so by Cabinet and we are going to

deal with this whole plethora of very complex issues in the next number of days.

So, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a fabulous piece of

legislation. I commend the Johnson family, Dr. Paul Johnson, in particular, and

I thank members from all parties, on all sides for their support for this piece

of legislation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: On motion, a bill, "An Act To Incorporate

The Grand Concourse Authority," read a second time, ordered referred to a

Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 23)

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, could we go on to Motion 1? My

understanding is that there will be Late Show questions submitted. If Your

Honour has them perhaps we could read them now, if not you have to do it at 4:00

p.m. The House will adjourn - I won't be here, I have to attend a meeting, but

my friend, the Minister of Finance will be here, and my understanding is, when

the Late Show concludes, we will meet tomorrow at 9:00 a.m.

Tempus fugit, I would say to hon. members, and all of us

should govern ourselves accordingly. If we're going to get out of here this side

of Regatta Day we should govern ourselves with appropriate discussion, I would

say.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, the Budget Debate and the

questions for the Late Show. It's 3:55 p.m. I guess there'll be no changes now,

acting House Leader.

The first question is, I'm not satisfied with the response to

my question of the Minister of Health regarding the hospital bed closures and

the community health services, and that's from the hon. the Member for

Ferryland.

I'm not satisfied with the answer to my question to the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs concerning the processing of an

application under Urban and Rural Planning Act for development at 130 Lemarchant

Road; that's from the hon. the Member for Waterford - Kenmount.

Mr. Speaker, I'm dissatisfied with the response to my

question to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation; and that's from

the hon. the Member for Green Bay.

We're on Motion 1, the Budget Debate.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm glad to rise to say a few words now on the Budget. It

took a little while to get back to it but I'm glad we could because there's a

few things I'd like to bring up, especially concerning my district. There's

quite a few things, actually, but I'll take a few minutes, anyway, to bring a

few of those to the floor here today.

Mr. Speaker, the first item I'd like to speak about - and

it's in relation to my district but it's one that's been popping up lately and

it's a very serious one, especially as it relates to my district - is in health

care, Mr. Speaker. One of the strongest influences, I guess, in my deciding to

enter politics, was this very issue, the issue of health care in my district.

Mr. Speaker, I say that it was one of the things that influenced me in

particular - my impression of politics - to even consider it when the issue of

health care in my district came up for the first time.

I returned to Baie Verte after leaving there for ten years. I

was born there, Mr. Speaker, in a hospital in Baie Verte, in 1959. It makes me

thirty-four years old. And I also have twelve other brothers and sisters who

were born there. Now, the funny thing about it, here it was just four short

years ago - now, of course, I'm married with my own two children, ages two and

five years.

After moving back to Baie Verte, Mr. Speaker, with a growing

town that boomed with the mining industry and so on there, they had a beautiful,

modern hospital. And I moved back to Baie Verte to find that when it came time

for my children to be born, I had to take a trip to Grand Falls, on two

occasions, stay in a hotel as my children were being born. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'm

quite sincere and serious when I talk about this issue because it's something

that struck me very funny. In a population of approximately 15,000 people, two

hours away from Grand Falls, two hours away from Corner Brook - basically Baie

Verte is in the middle geographically of Grand Falls and Corner Brook - and, of

course, I found it very strange that I would have to go to Grand Falls with my

wife and have my children born there while I sat in a hotel room that night. I

started to think about it, Mr. Speaker; I said, imagine, in 1959, a family of

fifteen children all born in Baie Verte back in the 1950s, as late as 1959 into

the 1960s, and here I am in 1992 and all I can think about is, here I am,

driving to Grand Falls to have a child born - in 1992.

MR. TULK: What's wrong with that?

MR. SHELLEY: What's wrong with that? the Member for Fogo

asks. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for Fogo should take this seriously.

Because it is something I take very seriously, I say to the Member for Fogo, and

it is sickening. No other statement than that. I will say it inside the House,

(inaudible) the politics of it or not. It really bothers me that somebody in

this House can make a joke about health care. I really find it bad that anybody

in this hon. House - I don't think the Minister of Social Services takes it as a

joke.

I'm being very serious when I say there is something wrong

when I sat in Grand Falls that night when my first child was born and said: I

was born in Baie Verte in 1959. The place has since then grown. We've become

more modern. And now I have to drive two hours and stay in a hotel while my

children were being born.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: No, I'm very serious about it.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: You should have been in there with your

wife.

MR. SHELLEY: I was with my wife.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: You should have been in the hospital

with her.

MR. SHELLEY: I was in the hospital with my wife, I say to

the hon. the Member for St. John's North. I'm telling you with all sincerity and

seriousness, I say to the Member for Fogo, with no political stripe whatsoever -

MR. TULK: Oh no, not with you.

MR. SHELLEY: On this issue, I say. I don't care what the

hon. member thinks.

MR. TULK: You never opened your face in your life but you

were playing politics.

MR. SHELLEY: Obviously, the Member for Fogo -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Something like the Member for Fogo.

Obviously, the Member for Fogo doesn't know me very well, and to be able to say

that, I don't know. He has only known me for a couple of months in the House of

Assembly. We don't go back in the dog's age of the Liberal Party like the Member

for Fogo.

Anyway, to get to the point that is important, Mr. Speaker,

and I say it with all honest and sincerity, in 1992, with the age of technology

and everything else, for somebody on the Baie Verte Peninsula - that community

boomed with the mining industry.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, I see, that is nice. Anyway, the point I

am making, Mr. Speaker - and I don't know if anybody on either side of the House

could argue it, when this day and age if you have to drive for two hours - and I

will say to other hon. members, I was living in the Baie Verte area. There are

people in La Scie - I talked to - go talk the realities of it, I'm not making

this up. A lady in La Scie just after I got elected decided to drive in the

winter, in January.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Well, it shouldn't be! I'm telling you my

case. If you want to speak about yours you can get up. I talked to a lady in La

Scie -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I'm trying to make a point if the people on

the opposite side weren't so ignorant about it. A woman from La Scie had told

me: You know, it is pretty ridiculous. Here I am, it is the month of January,

storms and whatever, and I'm pregnant. Her husband had gone to work in Hope

Brook. She was by herself and had to drive to Grand Falls, because the doctor

said she should go in a few weeks early, just in case, because there were some

problems. She had to leave and drive by herself to Grand Falls - three hours

from La Scie, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Social Services, I'm sure, can understand it,

he knows I'm being sincere about this. She said, `I drove for three hours over a

bad road, by the way - and I've talked (inaudible) the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation from La Scie.' But to drive over La Scie, up to Baie

Verte, then two more hours to get into Grand Falls to bear a baby in 1993, 1992.

You tell me that there is something sensible about that, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SHELLEY: The Member for Eagle River should be

supporting anybody who gets up and speaks on this.

MR. SPEAKER (L. Snow): Order, please! Order, please!

MR. SHELLEY: As usual, the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation missed the first part of the conversation so I would like to

ask him to at least ask somebody what has been talked about before he butts in

and talks on it.

Mr. Speaker, I say to the Member for Eagle River, any time

that he would stand up and support, or talk about something, I would support

him, too - not him, but the people of Labrador, because I know about Labrador,

too - I've lived there. And all I'm saying to hon. members, very seriously -

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible) Labrador City (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask hon. members not to interject.

MR. SHELLEY: I don't know why the hon. members are so

testy. I'm not using a partisan - I'm just giving you a situation that is a

reality in my part of the Province. I speak on behalf of my constituents. I'm

telling you a fact, a story, that goes on day after day out there. There are

15,000 people there, and we have a lady who has to drive for three hours to have

a child born. Simple.

AN HON. MEMBER: Go away with you!

MR. SHELLEY: What do you mean, `Go away with me'? The

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is - am I making a story up here,

am I fabricating, like the Premier goes on?

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the point I am making, I would say to

hon. members opposite, if you stood up to complain - because what I am doing is

complaining, yes. I have no problem doing that. Any member - the Member for

Fortune - Hermitage has some problems with some communities that are isolated

from hospitals down there, or the Member for Eagle River, as I just said. I am

not sure about the Member for Terra Nova. She has some communities that are far

from the hospital, like she said. I support anybody with that complaint.

What I am saying, very simply, is that health care in this

Province - the minister keeps getting up and saying it is adequate health care.

What a ridiculous statement! The bottom line is, in 1959 a baby could be born in

the Baie Verte area. In 1993, we have to drive for two hours to have a child

born.

I have a two-year-old child, and she has to have a

tonsillectomy, the most simple operation. I can't go up to the hospital - we

have a hospital there, a so-called hospital - and let my child go in there and

be taken care of, I have to drive to Corner Brook or Grand Falls. What a

ridiculous situation!

AN HON. MEMBER: How far is that from your home, now?

MR. SHELLEY: A two-hour drive, three hours from La Scie.

Now, it would be great if the roads were paved perfect, and it would be great if

there were no snowstorms. Of course, now, we have about the same chance of

having perfect pavement as we have of getting no snowstorms in February.

Mr. Speaker, that is just a point that I wanted to make to

the House, and I would support any other hon. member across who is in a similar

situation. Now, I know there is not a one-shot solution to it all. We are

realistic about that, but the point is that we should all support better health

care in the Province - I hope we do - and that we should be pursuing better

methods of health care.

That is the only point I wanted to make today, except that I

was interjected by ignorance, as far as I am concerned, on the other side of the

House, by people who are in the same situation. So I say to the Minister of

Health here today, we deserve better health care in my district, and if other

people have the same situation in their districts, I advise you to stand in this

House and speak for your people and say you deserve adequate health care. That

is all I am saying. It is very simple.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Eagle River (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: If the Member for Eagle River doesn't

believe it, then he shouldn't stand and say - unless he is going to stand and

say he has great health care there, no problems. When I have a concern in my

district, I don't mind standing and saying it in this House. That is what I was

elected for, and that is exactly what I am doing here today.

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of other things that I want to

mention before I get into the forestry, mining and fishery sections. Just to

give an example, I already said it once, but I thought I should bring it up

again and update the House on what is happening there, and I say it as an

example of communities in this Province that are going through a transition

stage, I say. A lot of communities are going through a transition stage because

of the crisis we now have in the fishery, and it is happening all over the

Province, so I just want to bear notice today to one community in my district

that has really exemplified the true spirit of being positive and going on, the

true spirit of putting their problems aside for a minute and saying: Let's get

on with our lives. Let's try to be positive. Let's see what we can do for

ourselves. I have heard other government members say many times: Let's see what

we can do for ourselves.

Mr. Speaker, there is no better example that I can think of

right now than the community of Harbour Deep. I was there again recently, and

they have elected a new council there, and a new mayor, Debbie Robson, and her

new council. They are a very energetic young group who have a great attitude, an

attitude that could be an example for any municipality in this Province.

They suggest we have to face the fact that there is a

fisheries crisis, and they suggest we have to look at alternatives. Now, I sat

with those people, and I will tell you, I was encouraged, and I was glad to be

their member. They confided in me with their problems. They talked about some

solutions, instead of sitting back, being negative all the time. There is a

saying that any man who says he never had a chance never took a chance. Well,

you have to take some chances, and the people I talked to in Harbour Deep - as

we all know, approximately a year ago, the question of resettlement came up. Let

me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that was a hard thing for the people in that

community. The community was torn on it. They were talking about that out of

desperation, facing a situation that they could have to leave where they grew up

and were proud to belong.

It is only a small, isolated community, but the truth is the

people had made a very good living for themselves in that community. Anybody who

has visited that area - the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation was

there, I know, and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology has been there

on occasion, and I tell you, Mr. Speaker, it is a beautiful community with great

potential for tourism, a pristine look, and the environment over there is just

bar none. I would suggest that any of the members would want to visit, during

the summer months especially. It is a beautiful area for salmon fishing over

there. So the tourism potential is very good.

Mr. Speaker, the people in that community, after going

through a very trying experience when the resettlement issue first appeared, are

at the stage today, I am glad to say that, after talking with the new council

over there, where they are in a mode of: Well, let's see what we can do for

ourselves. They are saying: Let's look at alternatives and see what we can do to

survive. I mean, they say to themselves: What's the good of us leaving here and

going to Grand Falls or Corner Brook or St. John's? What are they doing, Mr.

Speaker? All they are doing is transplanting the problem. They are taking the

problem from Harbour Deep and putting it somewhere else. So the people at

Harbour Deep are saying: Yes, let's be positive. They are saying: Let's look to

see what we can do for ourselves here.

So, Mr. Speaker, very simply the analogy that they use was:

You know, for years we stood on this wharf and looked out at the ocean for our

living. Well, very simply, Mr. Speaker, they have to turn around now and look

inland.

Now these are some of the potentials that they see. We

discussed, a couple of things, but one of the things they discussed was the

mining potential there, and there are some mineral developments that are

possible over there. Then they looked at the tourism. I mean, just look around

the place and you can see the tourism potential is great there.

The last one, the one that we are now pursuing heavily, Mr.

Speaker, is the forest potential over there. In the Harbour Deep area there is a

timber stand called the Moody Block, which, I think it was in 1934 by a Dr.

Moody, was sold to Abitibi-Price. Now, Mr. Speaker, they say it is one of the

best timber stands left in this Province, and since then Abitibi has not used

that timber stand whatsoever, for various reasons.

So, Mr. Speaker, the first thing we started to pursue since

that meeting - and I will say that I have been speaking with the Minister of

Forestry and Agriculture on it quite a few times. We talked about Abitibi

reverting that land to the Crown, and that would be the first step in starting

to develop that forest industry. Now there are going to be obstacles along the

way. The minister knows and I know that there is the environment, unions, the

company itself and everything else, but, Mr. Speaker, it has to start somewhere.

So our first step is to start the procedure at least, and

from talking to the minister, I can say that at least the procedure has started.

He has talked to Abitibi with a view to looking at reverting the land to the

Crown. So it has started anyway and we will see how long the procedure takes and

where it goes from there. The point, Mr. Speaker, is that it has started.

The main point is that this little community of 200 people

didn't just throw up their hands and give up and sit back and wait for

government hand outs. They said: